The Official UKFF RAW Thread...

[BomberPat]

12 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

A madman who loves adverts and the first 25 minutes of Humberto Carrillo matches.

this is another thing - WWE match psychology has taught us that none of that matters. No one's buying into a match before they get to the false finishes, because they know Roman Reigns isn't winning until he hits the Spear, so why care about him going for a pin after a Powerbomb? Matches have got longer and longer, but with no adjustment to the single finisher psychology that WWE have used forever, so there's still no point watching until the closing stretch for the most part anyway. 

[Devon Malcolm]

20 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

Only a madman would watch Raw live.

This is a vicious subtweet in a place like this.

[WyattSheepMask]

26 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

this is another thing - WWE match psychology has taught us that none of that matters. No one's buying into a match before they get to the false finishes, because they know Roman Reigns isn't winning until he hits the Spear, so why care about him going for a pin after a Powerbomb? Matches have got longer and longer, but with no adjustment to the single finisher psychology that WWE have used forever, so there's still no point watching until the closing stretch for the most part anyway. 

But you can say that about most people/promotions. Young Bucks don’t stand a chance until they’ve done at least 5 Superkicks between them. Tyler Bate isn’t winning until he does that Shoulder Rope Springboard thing that he does. Okada doesn’t have a prayer until the clocks past 25 minutes.

The only thing that seems to be a genuine finishing move that could end a match at any moment is the Judas Effect which everyone shat on at first, now it’s the one thing that actually seems to add some genuine drama

Edited May 7, 2020 by WyattSheepMask

[PowerButchi]

20 hours ago, Perry said:

BT must be well pissed off about these unforeseen circumstances. They threw a shit load of cash at WWE in order to outbid Sky and they've ended up with months of this empty venue shite. Apparently even Channel 5 aren't too impressed with the numbers for their highlight package shows either. Must be bad when Channel 5 are complaining.

Channel 5 have already moved WWE to Paramount I think, so that's a sign of how well it's been faring. 

[Daaaaaad!]

15 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Channel 5 have already moved WWE to Paramount I think,

Only Smackers in fairness, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Sunday's RAW highlights follow suit in a few weeks. And that's only the one hour version!

[CavemanLynn]

31 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

this is another thing - WWE match psychology has taught us that none of that matters. No one's buying into a match before they get to the false finishes, because they know Roman Reigns isn't winning until he hits the Spear, so why care about him going for a pin after a Powerbomb? Matches have got longer and longer, but with no adjustment to the single finisher psychology that WWE have used forever, so there's still no point watching until the closing stretch for the most part anyway. 

It's this sort of bubble psychology that has distanced me from the in-ring WWE product, and others to be fair, in recent years. Modern wrestling needs to get out of the habit, but the trend is set now so I can't see it happening.

It's something I've grown to really appreciate in Bret Hart's matches, looking back at them through today's eyes, and his use of the Sharpshooter. Everyone knows that as his finish, but watching the old shows back, it seems much subtler than that. On TV, Bret has no problem finishing scrubs with it, but on the big shows against the main eventers, he seemed to win as many matches through desperation small-packages, victory rolls and other rollups. If he got the Sharpshooter on, you knew not only was the match done, but that probably ended the feud - once he'd found your weakness and how to get it on you, you had to fall back. There's none of that. It's part and parcel of finisher spamming, the current video game style, which you can't really blame because the Smackdown games have been going for a generation.

It was one of Jon Moxley's post-WWE podcast interviews where he commented on Vince actually enjoying old school psychology, like working body parts etc. It's that throwaway comment combined with the state of the current product that has me convinced Vince just likes watching two or more guys wrestle. That's it. I don't think he's thinking of the audience or the show flow; he's just impatient for the next rassle.

[King Pitcos]

39 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

this is another thing - WWE match psychology has taught us that none of that matters. No one's buying into a match before they get to the false finishes, because they know Roman Reigns isn't winning until he hits the Spear, so why care about him going for a pin after a Powerbomb? Matches have got longer and longer, but with no adjustment to the single finisher psychology that WWE have used forever, so there's still no point watching until the closing stretch for the most part anyway. 

You’re partly right, but the thing now is how many of that finisher will it take, and is anything less than a top rope version of it enough?

To follow CavemanLynn’s example above, even in those days, I was a bit disappointed when Undertaker fought a big lad and finished them with the choke slam rather than the tombstone. Then when Stone Cold was the man, you’d be gutted if you bought a ticket and he didn’t do the stunner. Same with the People’s Elbow and Rock Bottom. Big-time wrestlers are a bit like a classic band - some new stuff is alright but you want to see them play the hits. So the story now for an epic match isn’t will they get to do their special move, but will that special move once be enough?

In WWE, I think it stems from the Michaels vs Undertaker match being awarded godlike status. It happened a fair bit before that, Rock and Austin did it in all their big matches, and all the other big matches at WrestleMania 19 (except the racist one) had multiple finisher kick outs. But when that Mania 25 match became the “watch this to learn how to work” example, the culture changed. Then Cena’s US title reign had loads of people below his level kicking out of his finisher on TV, and it’s been getting more ridiculous since.

That said, I still got into finisher spam matches most of the time up until the two title matches at this year’s WrestleMania.

[HarmonicGenerator]

27 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

You’re partly right, but the thing now is how many of that finisher will it take, and is anything less than a top rope version of it enough?

To follow CavemanLynn’s example above, even in those days, I was a bit disappointed when Undertaker fought a big lad and finished them with the choke slam rather than the tombstone. Then when Stone Cold was the man, you’d be gutted if you bought a ticket and he didn’t do the stunner. Same with the People’s Elbow and Rock Bottom. Big-time wrestlers are a bit like a classic band - some new stuff is alright but you want to see them play the hits. So the story now for an epic match isn’t will they get to do their special move, but will that special move once be enough?

In WWE, I think it stems from the Michaels vs Undertaker match being awarded godlike status. It happened a fair bit before that, Rock and Austin did it in all their big matches, and all the other big matches at WrestleMania 19 (except the racist one) had multiple finisher kick outs. But when that Mania 25 match became the “watch this to learn how to work” example, the culture changed. Then Cena’s US title reign had loads of people below his level kicking out of his finisher on TV, and it’s been getting more ridiculous since.

That said, I still got into finisher spam matches most of the time up until the two title matches at this year’s WrestleMania.

It's a bit of an indictment of WWE that I wasn't even sure which WrestleMania 19 match you might have meant there - the Booker T one or the one with Hogan!

 

I think my final straw with finisher spam was Gargano and Cole this time next year. I could still get into the big matches that did it prior to that, some of the time at least. But their 2 Out Of 3 Falls match was so utterly ridiculous I have lost just about all interest in near falls. I think these days I'm more surprised if a finisher actually does the trick and gets a 3!

Edited May 7, 2020 by HarmonicGenerator

[BomberPat]

Combination of responses here - in terms of multiple finishers, that's part and parcel of the same problem. When no other move is a believable false finish, the only place to go is to start having people kick out of finishers.

To be the internet wrestling nerd for a moment, if you look at '90s AJPW, the crowd are going mental for every big match, because people don't just have one finisher that's got over - every single signature move they have is a believable finish, because they're all established. Yeah, Misawa might finish him with the Tiger Driver, but it's just as likely that a well-placed forearm or the Emerald Flowsion could do the trick, or just a back suplex, or the Frog Splash, or that he'll get a submission off the Boston Crab. All the top guys had a whole range of moves that people bought into as potential match enders, because they'd all seen them end matches before.

By having a wider range of ways a match could end, and a wider range of protected potential finishing moves, you keep the crowd engaged for longer because they're not just waiting around until it's time for an exchange of finishers. The alternative is that the only ways a match will ever end are by finisher or distraction roll-up.

 

I'd absolutely put a similar criticism to Okada, as he is someone who tends to start slow with stuff that doesn't contribute to the match as a whole. The Young Bucks, and a few of the AEW lot, are a little different - as much as their matches are absolutely non-stop movesfests, I couldn't tell you on any given night what they're going to finish with. Maybe it'll be More Bang For Your Buck, maybe it'll be the Meltzer Driver, maybe it'll be a well set up Superkick, maybe some other big mad flippy thing. Their matches are too heavy on the false finishes for my tastes, but if you take something like their match against Omega and Page, I bought into a hell of a lot more of them than I would have done were it a Roman Reigns/Seth Rollins match where neither bloke had hit their big move yet.

Edited May 7, 2020 by BomberPat

[The King Of Swing]

42 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

To be the internet wrestling nerd for a moment, if you look at '90s AJPW, the crowd are going mental for every big match, because people don't just have one finisher that's got over - every single signature move they have is a believable finish, because they're all established.

Funny you mention that because I recently realised after a bit of a binge that a good few of Stardom's roster have multiple finishers and regularly beat lower card wrestlers with their secondary moves.

Further back in time even Hogan would occasionally win in WWE with the Axe Bomber instead of the Big Leg.

[The Dart]

4 hours ago, Daaaaaad! said:

Only Smackers in fairness, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Sunday's RAW highlights follow suit in a few weeks. And that's only the one hour version!

And they moved Smacky D from C5 to Paramount, but they also moved it from Saturday morning to Friday night.

[Statto]

I've watched a few of these "Finisher Evolution" videos whilst on the shitter recently, and it actually made me ponder the multiple match ending moves thing. Huge example with Rollins here:

You've got 3 moves (Stomp, Pedigree, knee) all recently establish as having the capability of finishing even the highest calibre of opponent. Why not use them? Even if you keep the Stomp as his "main" finish, throw in one of the others every now & again.

IIRC, he did resort to using the Pedigree in a match relatively recently & it got a good reaction (and a 2 count I think...)

[Doog]

Becky Lynch making a major announcement tonight.

Twitter seems to believe she is pregnant.

[Lenin]

She also passed 390 odd days as champion today I saw online. I had no idea she'd reigned that long. Another excellent lesson in taking a riding star, who is over and booking them into mediocrity. 

[IANdrewDiceClay]

This bloke currently googling: "can you get a girl pregnant by being odd at a convention."