Random Thoughts III.

[Carbomb]

The same trainer I referred to above was very much about the psych, and looking distinctive in relation to your character, right down to the smallest detail. For example, at the beginning of a standard match, two opponents circle each other - William Regal and Kurt Angle are very likely to be polar opposites in terms of how they do even that. How does a pretty boy character sell being punched in the face in comparison to, say, a psychopath? How does a bad-ass walk in comparison to a ponce?

Another thing he often mentioned was stance, and used the video games as a perfect example: when in CAW mode in WWE games, you have to select a stance, and, even if you were to tape over the dialogue box which says whose stance it is, you'd usually be able to spot, just by looking at the green man example model, whose stance it was, and you could see how it fit into the respective wrestler's gimmick. RVD's stance was a bouncing-on-the-spot, Bruce-Lee-vs.-Chuck-Norris-type stance, Angle's was a typical, low-centre-of-gravity, crouched forward, legs planted wide, hands ready to grab-type amateur wrestling stance, early Lesnar's was slightly hunched forward in the amateur style, but still upright enough to imply huge strength, while constantly moving his shoulders and arms as if to imply his muscles were too big for his frame, The Rock's was back upright, chest puffed out, occasionally looking around at the crowd as if driven by cheers, and Rhyno's was similar to the amateur style, but constantly shifting his torso, like a man-beast.

[BomberPat]

Warning: This post might be a tad name drop-y.

One of the best I've ever trained with for that sort of thing was Ophidian - everything he does is informed by the "Cobra" gimmick, down to how he locks up - he'll bend his whole upper body back, then arc quickly forwards into the collar-and-elbow, to look like a cobra striking its prey. Little things like that tend to be overlooked very easily. On a similar note, on Breaking Ground Tyler Breeze said something like, "if a kid was pretending to be you in the playground, what would they do?" which I think is a really useful way of looking at it.

On the pre-planning vs. calling it in the ring front, I attended a Mike Quackenbush seminar a couple of years ago, and one of the first things he asked the group was, roughly, what percentage of your matches are pre-planned compared to called in the ring. The majority of the people there lent heavily towards pre-planned, and Quack explained how, when he was starting out, the veterans - which at the time would be the likes of Greg Valentine and Tito Santana - would ridicule younger wrestlers if they so much as got in the ring before the show, they thought that running through anything ahead of time meant you "couldn't work". But most of them were pulling from a comparatively limited pool of moves and sequences that they could be expected to use, so it was much easier to call in the ring - as wrestling has evolved, it's far more likely that the guy you're facing will utilise moves or spots that are far more complex than anything we saw 30 years ago, so there's more of a need to rehearse and try things out, as that's just the way the sport has evolved. One of the downsides to that, though, is that if you're thinking too much in terms of setting up the next spot, you're not reacting enough, and the old adage is that wrestling isn't acting, it's reacting - so the guys that are still capable of making everything they do fit their character and feel genuine are still always going to stand out.

As for the stand-off, I blame Jerry Lynn vs. Rob Van Dam. I think for guys in their late 20s to early or mid-30s, that's the match that's really going to stick out as creating that super indie style, and that stand-off spot. For years in the early '00s they were held up as the pinnacle of that style of wrestling.

 

I agree with punches and kicks being overused - though punches way moreso. On punches, I'm going to do something I don't do often and cite Alex Shane, who argued against the use of punches in wrestling in one of his columns, basically on the grounds that everyone watching in the crowd either knows, or has a pretty good idea, what it feels like to get punched in the face. When you see a guy getting punched in the face repeatedly just as a means to get from one spot to the next, and he's barely registering that he's been hit that many times, it's the most obviously fake thing going. Whereas the audience don't know how it feels to get suplexed, bodyslammed, or to take the majority of kicks, they absolutely know that a guy can't get punched over and over again with no effect. There's also very few wrestlers who can throw genuinely convincing worked punches, and I'm very much of the mindset that if you can't throw a good worked punch, you shouldn't throw them at all. There's plenty of other things you can do instead of punching.

 

@Sphinx  - on cross-pollination, I think the key is finding the talents who can take what works about one style and translate it to another. Rey Mysterio succeeded where other luchadores didn't, in part because he was able to take bits of Lucha Libre that appealed to the US audience and fit them to the American style, and to American psychology, rather than just wrestling a Lucha match in front of an audience more attuned to a different approach.

It's a similar situation you've mentioned with the Japanese approach, which has adapted to be more about the idea of "Fighting Spirit", where you can expect to see two people exchanging huge moves and seemingly "no selling" them, only to collapse after the fact. Done badly, it looks incredibly fake, but done well it's extraordinarily effective - but just cutting and pasting that sequence from a Japanese match that builds to it with the psychology and storytelling techniques that audience is used to, into an American match that follows slightly different rules, won't work. It's a sequence that absolutely can work in America, but the story the match is telling needs to build satisfactorily to allow that sequence to play out.

One example I've used before of something taken from one culture and transplanted into another without any real thought given is how Daniel Bryan, Mike Quackenbush, Colt Cabana, and probably many others, used to use the "Lady In The Lake" spot in America. The only reason that spot works is that, in Mountevans Rules, it's illegal to attack an opponent while they're on the mat, so you're left with no choice but to take the man's hand when he offers it to you. In America, where there's no such rule, there's nothing to stop you just stomping on him while he's curled up in a ball, or lifting him off the mat, or physically trying to prise his limbs out of the position he's in. Psychologically, it doesn't make sense to do that move in an American context, but they're just copying what they've seen elsewhere with no thought given to whether it fits.

 

@tiger_rick is right about "cookie cutter" - the downside of cross-pollination is homogenisation; it's harder now to point to a distinct "Japanese style" or "American style", as the American style, via the likes of ROH, has become more influenced by Japan, NJPW's style has become more influenced by WWE, and the two sort of meet in the middle. The same thing has happened in Lucha, and most British wrestlers will pay lip service if anything to the old British styles.

 

[Kaz Hayashi]

As HG said, this thread has gone in a really good direction over the last couple of pages. Great reading material gents.

[TildeGuy~!]

errm? 

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

I don't think it is fair to say that NJPW's style has been influenced by WWE @BomberPat. 

 

I think you could say that the NJPW main event style has been influenced by WWE, but even that is not quite right. The influence of AJ Styles on both of them over the last 5 years is probably something that should not be overlooked. Styles took more of the modern American style into New Japan, and he brought little bits of New Japan with him when he went to the 'E. 

 

The rest of New Japan's style is a million miles away from WWE. The juniors like Ospreay, Hiromu, and Kushida certainly wouldn't fit, and neither would anyone who contests the Never Openweight title. Lesnar may be stiff but he isn't going to have a Suzuki/Goto style match with Reigns at Mania or any day of the week for that matter. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Lion_of_the_Midlands
Sausage fingered buffoon.

[CavemanLynn]

@BomberPat, I don't think it's overuse of punches and kicks that is the problem when it comes to their use as transitions; I think it's the underselling of those punches and kicks these days, and that's a fault in both the deliverer and the seller. Going back to early Austin, his punches were actually pretty limp-armed and clearly delivered with the "invisible egg" finger ball than a fist. But he had an incredible snap to them and sold the movement with his whole body (watch those blond locks flick!), and on top of that, his opponents didn't just stand there; they'd spin and stagger, they'd MOVE. The punch was a signal, exactly the same way the positioning or hold on a headlock might be a trigger for a particular counter. It was back and forth, and a good seller would use the punch to change position, move the action, convey facials, and alter the pace. Which is itself YET ANOTHER difference between then and now - these days, the rule is, the heel leads. But if you were in there with a great face back then and you're a relatively green heel, it would still be the vet's job to teach and polish, to lead the heel.

Years ago, a lit Jake Roberts came out with a nevertheless smart piece of advice: if you give a guy three of his best strikes and he's still standing there, you get the fuck out of that ring. I see so many guys throw three forearms, holding the opponent's head so they can't even sell them (!), then run to the ropes while the opponent is still facing them. It's nonsensical and signposted. Lead footed selling needs to go away, as does the rule of threes.

I suppose it's also the difference between training competence and match competence. By all means, the PC should be ensuring guys are working safely and have mastered the rules of the basics, but then allow them to bend those rules. It's almost catch-22, where WWE have built up this idea that they are the best in the world, so everyone that comes in has to be a finished product. They have NXT, sure, but that's a bubble that is rapidly becoming a conveyor belt rather than a star maker.

I really hope that Kennedy story is true, because if so, I absolutely applaud him. Working on the fly, not necessarily calling spots but having the confidence to adapt and stray from set pieces if they don't fit the unfolding story, really feels like a lost art that needs to be rekindled. Cornette gets a lot of flak, justifiably so, but he's made a lot of strong arguments in interviews about guys needing to be able to change a match if the crowd's not buying what they're selling.

I don't think believability is about leathering each other, shedding blood, or being able to go 45mins. It's little things that today's workers need to discover for themselves by being themselves and letting themselves react naturally. They might not be their WWE 2K18 self, and that's fine.

Edited March 5, 2018 by CavemanLynn
And another thing!

[Astro Hollywood]

If you've got a spare hour, this is an exceptional piece of writing about Cody and Dusty: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in

[marc2j]

9 minutes ago, Astro Hollywood said:

If you've got a spare hour, this is an exceptional piece of writing about Cody and Dusty: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in

I read this on the train and its a lovely piece of writing and made me really appreciate Cody's journey so far.

[BigJag]

2 hours ago, Astro Hollywood said:

If you've got a spare hour, this is an exceptional piece of writing about Cody and Dusty: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in

Thank you for that.

[Winston]

3 hours ago, Astro Hollywood said:

If you've got a spare hour, this is an exceptional piece of writing about Cody and Dusty: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in

That was a fantastic read. Cheers for that!

[WeeAl]

14 hours ago, Astro Hollywood said:

If you've got a spare hour, this is an exceptional piece of writing about Cody and Dusty: https://www.theringer.com/2018/3/6/17072332/cody-rhodes-dusty-rhodes-all-in

I've Just finished reading the article, and it was fantastic, thanks for sharing it Astro.

[HarmonicGenerator]

I know in reality it would never happen, but theoretically, is there anything to stop Carmella rocking up as Roman Reigns is celebrating at the end of WrestleMania, cashing in her MITB on whoever the Women’s champ is, and ‘making history’ by becoming the first women to main event Mania by going on last?

[mim731]

I do actually think Carmella might cash in and lose at Mania, but they could have nuclear heat for her if Asuka were to get injured, but beat Charlotte in a war, and Carmella cashes in after the match and ends the streak.

[Kaz Hayashi]

Just remembered... we had 2 ultimate warrior hasbros when me and my brother were kids, the purple one was THE Ultimate Warrior, and the white trunks one was turned in to his brother, Michael Warrior.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Kaz Hayashi

[air_raid]

4 hours ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

Just remembered... we had 2 ultimate warrior hasbros when me and my brother were kids, the purple one was THE Ultimate Warrior, and the white trunks one was turned in to his brother, Michael Warrior.

I literally just had two Ultimate Warriors. No explanation. They constantly feuded with The Perfect Team, but I don't remember the generic name I gave to the other Perfect.