Paid Members BomberPat Posted December 9, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 9, 2019 I think NXT has lost a ton of focus in the last 12-18 months, because it almost entirely shifted in focus from being a developmental brand. People seem to forget that NXT didn't get a ton of plaudits early on just for putting out Good Wrestling, but by having a simplistic, back-to-basics approach, and logical storytelling. A large part of that was that it was clear that after a title programme or two, the top talent would be called up to the main roster. It meant that everyone's story had an end-point, no one outstayed their welcome, and it felt like the main event talent went through a logical character/story arc of the kind you rarely see in wrestling when everyone has to be on TV every week. Since the main event scene became The Undisputed Era, Johnny Gargano and Tomasso Ciampa and little else, the show has felt largely stagnant, I don't feel like anything's developing or going anywhere, and every Takeover feels like, Good Wrestling aside, it's more or less just the same as what came before. It's no surprise that the emergence of Keith Lee as a major star feels like the best thing in NXT for a while, because it's a little novelty back in the mix. What's worrying for AEW, though, is how quickly it feels that they have fallen into a predictable formula. They've been around for five minutes, yet already some matches feel like "more of the same", and some talent feel overexposed. We're already on our second iteration of "Chris Jericho defends the World Title against a tag team competitor because he was goaded into it in a promo". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 “Like WWE but better” is exactly what I want AEW to be. And in one or two bits a week, they manage that. The rest of the show veers too close to “like your local indie group, but televised.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 29 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: “Like WWE but better” is exactly what I want AEW to be. And in one or two bits a week, they manage that. The rest of the show veers too close to “like your local indie group, but televised.” That's probably the nail on the head with AEW really. Not only are the viewers torn as to what they're looking for, but those in charge aren't really willing to commit to what they are trying to be either. It makes sense - they're an early upstart, still finding their feet and looking to see what works and what doesn't. It's actually an advantage that wrestling has over other shows in that they should be able to develop as they go along, listen to feedback and course-correct when they need to. Not that they should be drastic enough to overhaul everything just because a few internet geeks decided to complain about it but feedback can be very useful. Same with live audiences. As with any company attempting to break into the market, they do need to be focused on the long game and surviving first over anything. Will they be the potential gamechangers that many hoped they would be? I think that'll take time to really show, and could be as much about luck as anything, but then wrestling is like that in general. You just don't know who might break out and become that mainstream star again. Not like any of us thought it would happen to The Rock or Stone Cold etc after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted December 9, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 9, 2019 It's really clear how few of the people involved have experience wrestling on TV, and how the people who do aren't really sharing the love with their colleagues. Cody carries himself like a star, because he has experience of being a star. Chris Jericho knows when he can colour outside the lines and ad-lib, but that comes from having spent years knowing how to do it properly, so he still hits all the right notes and gets his point across - and honestly at this point every single person in the company should be pushing to get some time in an angle with Jericho, because every single time he gets the mic he uses it to put over someone else's gimmick at a time when the company is doing precious little to that end. I do think there's been a disconnect in promises and expectation - a lot of fans, and a lot of the wrestling gutter press, acted from before AEW even had a name as if they were immediately going to be taking WWE to the cleaners, that they were looking to sign CM Punk, The Undertaker and Sting, that half the WWE roster were jumping ship...and absolutely none of it was based on anything that AEW were actually saying. There's a fair few promises that I feel AEW haven't delivered on, but I also feel like they're being judged harshly for not having lived up to expectations that they were never setting in the first place. Ultimately, they still have an air of "realistic and down to earth, but crawling with magical robots". They crow about wins and losses mattering, and have a ranking system, and fans and critics alike have clung to that phrase "sports-like presentation", but they also have Luchasaurus, Orange Cassidy et al, and a fair bit of hokey comedy. I don't think comedy in wrestling is a bad thing by any means, I think it's essential, but so far they're not nailing the "three ring circus" approach of feeling like they have something for everyone so much as they're feeling disjointed and unfocused. The beauty of WCW at their best was that each match felt like it could offer something different - your main event might be Nash vs. Hogan in a WWF style heavyweight match, but before that you've got Dean Malenko vs. Psicosis, Jushin Liger vs. Rey Misterio Jr, Steven Regal vs. Fit Finlay, and a mad Nasty Boys brawl to get through, or whatever. That's how you do "a bit of everything", and it feels like that's what AEW are aiming for, but they're lacking the consistent agenting/production to make the matches feel significantly different from one another unless you have a Dustin Rhodes or a Chris Jericho involved, and wrestling is a whole is so homogenised now that you have to really work hard to find two styles of match/styles of wrestler as drastically different today as Misterio was to Regal or to Nash in the '90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted December 9, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 9, 2019 So far, the way 'wins and losses matter' has been best used is with characters and storylines. Omega, Hangman, Cody - their losses have hit them hard, either through stipulations or just because they were beaten. The losses aren't being forgotten or shrugged off. How many times did we see Roman Reigns or John Cena coming out smiling the day after losing their title? For me, this is a much better use of 'wins and losses matter' than the rankings thing. This is where, for me, it's really shining, and it's kind of slow-burn with Kenny Omega in particular. It's partly because I followed the end of his NJPW run, and I'm invested in his relationship with Ibushi, but it's got to the point where Kenny's happiness as a character matters to me in a way I haven't had with wrestling since Daniel Bryan's Wrestlemania XXX run. The problem they're having so far is that they're not putting this in easily digestible ways for TV. It might be that they're just not getting there yet with Kenny, but they're not doing it that well with some of the smaller stuff either. The Butcher/Blade/Bunny segment has been talked about ad nauseum, but there are other examples - the Jungle Boy segment was really fun, but it needed to be hammered home that it wasn't a title shot and that he has 10 minutes in the ring with him. That just wasn't clear by the end of the segment. That said, it's still early days, and they're getting a bunch right. I'm not watching WWE, so I'm not as burnt out on wrestling right now - this is a nice, easy watch each week and I'm enjoying it, so I'm more lenient than some. But it's certainly showing how difficult it is to put together a solid two-hour show each week. They're improving on some elements - the last Preview show was a massive improvement over the first few, there's a better mix of promos and matches on the main TV shows, and they've been varying things up more. But for each thing they get right, they're slipping up somewhere else. Fingers crossed, they keep improving. I'm enjoying it a lot, and it'd be nice if they can keep building more general enthusiasm for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 9 hours ago, tiger_rick said: I'd take the big stars from AEW over NXT though and that's not even a debate. I feel completely the opposite. Outside of Jericho, Moxley and Dustin (and DDP) I don't feel like AEW has big stars. The have people who they SAY are big stars, but they don't present them as such. Kenny Omega being a prime example - one of the guys I genuinely was excited to see due to the hype, but who's utterly failed to show me anything. One thing NXT has always been fantastic at is building stars - taking someone with basically no rep (or an Indie rep), and making them into a big deal. Look at how they've built Rhea Ripley into pretty much the best thing in wrestling right now - cannot wait to see her and Shayna go at it. Finn Balor bored the shit out of me on Raw, but a few weeks of focus in NXT and he's red hot again. Almost all of of WWE's current top talent were built in NXT as well, they've got a great record. As a casual AEW viewer, I can spot a few guys who I feel are pretty talented with potential, but they don't seem to be the focus of the shows right now. There's an awful lot of 50/50 booking that's making everyone seem midcard at the moment. The WCW comparisons I can definitely see, but more pre-Hogan, post Flair WCW when they just didn't have that many big stars and didn't know how to elevate anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 hours ago, BomberPat said: wrestling is a whole is so homogenised now that you have to really work hard to find two styles of match/styles of wrestler as drastically different today as Misterio was to Regal or to Nash in the '90s. Excellent point. Maybe this is why I struggle with the 'alternative' concept. Wrestling has evolved from being a multitude of different styles to so many wrestlers working a fast-paced all-action style [there are exceptions, of course] to the point where something today has to be so completely different in order to make it stand out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted December 9, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Loki said: I feel completely the opposite. Outside of Jericho, Moxley and Dustin (and DDP) I don't feel like AEW has big stars. So outside of the big stars, you don't feel like they have big stars? Funny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) Remember Tony Khan saying we'd never see the shitty invisible camera? Also, nothing kills your no-DQ main event quite like someone in your co-main event hitting his opponent in the face with a mobile telephone right in front of the ref and not being disqualified. I probably champion this company more than most but the cracks are definitely starting to show and it absolutely feels like they've plateaued in terms of listening and adapting. Really disappointing. Edited December 12, 2019 by Supremo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 Just a bit bland this week I thought. They kept everything moving towards where they're going (Jericho/Moxley, Cody/MJF, Spears/Janela, Dustin/Hager) but none of it was done in a particularly interesting way. Liked Moxley crushing a jobber, Luchasaurus getting a big win and focus, the continued tease of a Page heel turn, MJF on the mic (always) and chaotic main event. They need to bin the win/loss shit. It's rubbish. Sammy G has lost every match. That doesn't particularly matter, he's a cocky twat who's association with Jericho keeps him relevant but don't hammer home that he's a loser. If you're going to have number one contender matches that don't take into account rankings or wins and losses then fine, but bin them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members quote the raven Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 Did they say if they would reset the stupid win loss record? If not how does that work a year down the line with such a thin roster? I agree with rick its rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakashi Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, quote the raven said: Did they say if they would reset the stupid win loss record? If not how does that work a year down the line with such a thin roster? I agree with rick its rubbish I think they said it gets reset every January. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 It should be done in seasons, but also acknowledge a record from the previous year, like Arsenal in 2004 and Liverpool this year or Van Nistelrooy scoring from the previous serious. Its daft if you're like "2 wins for Jericho!" when he has lost ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 If they're not doing much with the records this year, I hope it's a big factor next year. A season-end/year-end thing that's a pay-off for the year? Yes please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted December 12, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 12, 2019 I don't know whether it was that episode being the first bit of wrestling that I've watched in quite a while, but I enjoyed that. The two hours flew by. The women's match was still too long and lost the crowd in the middle, and this Brandi stuff is still a bit shit, but I liked everything else. I've also got a feeling that the mystery man next to Brandi will be revealed as Joey Mercury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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