Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[PunkStep]

12 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

I remember years ago on here saying that if a girl was (too) drunk, she can't technically give consent. I remember being shouted down by a small handful of forum members who thought that was absurd. One guy even said to me "wait... so you're saying if I meet a girl at a pub and shes drunk I can't have sex with her? You're stupid."

The Ched Evans thread from a couple of years ago shows that most people on here agree with your viewpoint. 

Also, spot on there from @Devon Malcolm. ~

[kamicazze]

In some countries the legal age is far less. And every time I've read a story on that I've been horrified as I would imagine any one else would be.

As much as we are a progressive society nowadays, i don't think you can say that Irish paddy jokes is kind of the same. Underage relations has never been okay, nor has sexual assault - it may have been brushed under the carpet more in the past yet didn't make it okay.

The progressive society we are in, we have to also appreciate some people are slower on that journey than others (and that's also a part of it, understanding people are different) - and can't judge people when they're taking more time. 

I think certain things can be educated - Racists can be taught to not be racist, sexists can be taught, Homophobic can be taught. I don't really think you can teach a nonce not to be a nonce. 

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, kamicazze said:

Underage relations has never been okay, nor has sexual assault - it may have been brushed under the carpet more in the past yet didn't make it okay.

When Bill Wyman was dating a 14 year old Mandy Jones, the papers were all "Wahay, he still has it".  Nowadays, it seems to only be an issue when the perps don't have white skin, but that's not for this thread.

[Chris B]

It wasn't that long ago 16 and 17 year olds were on Page 3 of The Sun.

And I'm pretty clearly not likening Irish jokes to sexual assault. I've talked in this thread already about the wider culture around attitudes to sexuality, gender and race needing to change in order to make it a space everyone can be comfortable in, and about how that culture has to change. I'm clarifying on the off-chance the point wasn't deliberately being missed.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Chris B

[tiger_rick]

2 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said:

I think this thread has been very telling in regards to the people who have only shown their face to excuse shitty behaviour or going as far as, in my opinion, deliberately derailing this thread from the intended discussion. Also, the ones who only pop in to like posts of those excusing shitty behaviour.

At some point we need to have a discussion about how the changes that are bound to happen in the wrestling industry now, especially over here, need to be transferred to its support and fan base. There are some distinctly problematic and worrying posts in this thread and, considering this forum has, let's say, a chequered past when it comes to members and their conduct, it's clear the buck shouldn't just stop with talent.

Good points. It's not just the forum, it's the entire country. Keep going though. If nothing else, at least the boundaries of what is acceptable these days have shifted massively. Hopefully the amount of people living in the dark ages will continue to decrease. Social networks actually taking action to get rid of these people and the massive number of bots will help.

[ThumpSquids]

1 hour ago, kamicazze said:

 I don't really think you can teach a nonce not to be a nonce. 

When I began working in psychiatric units, I was surprised by the number of people self-admitting due to their attraction for underage people. The disgust they felt for their own paedophilic desires overcame the wish to act out on those desires, and allowed them to seek support in managing this. So, while you're correct to some degree, not all indulge in pederasty, which is certainly the greater crime.  

[iPumaPants]

1 hour ago, ThumpSquids said:

When I began working in psychiatric units, I was surprised by the number of people self-admitting due to their attraction for underage people. The disgust they felt for their own paedophilic desires overcame the wish to act out on those desires, and allowed them to seek support in managing this. So, while you're correct to some degree, not all indulge in pederasty, which is certainly the greater crime.  

I had a friend who admitted having these desires. A few people wanted nothing to do with him, believing he'd nonced it up, others encouraged him to get help. He went and got help. He was so distraught by his own thoughts.

I don't know what he's doing nowadays. We drifted apart as friends. Hopefully he's managing, and not in any trouble. 

[Keith Houchen]

I know a psychologist who works in sex offender wings in prisons. She said that for 9 out of 10 cases, the offenders didn’t see the victims as children or underage, but as peers. So they were having sex with someone in their peer group. These people usually went on to not reoffend.  I think that can be equated to the wrestling industry regarding peers, but if you’re in a position of power then you’re abusing it as well as the victims. 

[AVM]

I'm definitely seeing all this from a new perspective. If there can be a positive to this sordid business (referring to the entire #speakingout movement), its that most of us are all that little more enlightened. I know I've learned a fair amount. Not enough, but a fair amount. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by AVM

[Loki]

For me, the morality issue comes down to inequities of power and authority.

So a 30 year old wrestler having sex with a 17 year old trainee is off not just because of the age disparity but the relationship of teacher/trainer between them.

 But someone in their early 20s having a consensual relationship with a 17 year old is less black and white, say.  Or a 17 year old boy having sex with his 15 year old girlfriend, which is statutory rape but probably quite common.

What I found most worrying in most of these stories was that the girls were in a situation where they were dependent on the men, or nominally in their charge, and the men used that power dynamic to take advantage.

[garynysmon]

3 minutes ago, Loki said:

So a 30 year old wrestler having sex with a 17 year old trainee is off not just because of the age disparity but the relationship of teacher/trainer between them.

Its also fucking weird tbh.

I'm 36 now so a fair bit older, but I can't imagine having sex with a 16/17 year old now or for the past 10-15 years (notwithstanding the fact that they wouldn't want to anyway).

[Chris B]

Ricky Knight's done a video - 40 minutes long, so there was no way I watched all of that. Skipped in and out to some key bits. He's clearly had someone in his ear - I loved "You'll have nowhere to hide.. legally speaking".

The most frustrating thing here is that the accusation isn't of Saraya being into 10 year olds. Nobody believes that - it's that she did something stupid and inappropriate. But it's also tied totally into the culture they're in and the attitude they take. What he's saying, for the most part, isn't incompatible with any of this. They're rough (the business is rough), they're performers (because it's a performance). 

The accusation isn't that they're just sadists or that she's into kids. I can totally believe they've been over-rough at times, and I can totally believe Saraya did what's clearly part of her act at times to someone younger than she thought. 

The accusation of them in particular are that they're unregulated, and at times they've been unprofessional. This is more an apology, clear change of process, and move forward approach. It's not a bunker down and deny everything one - they're just making it worse, and hardly coming across as level-headed professionals.

[Tommy!]

6 minutes ago, Chris B said:

Ricky Knight's done a video - 40 minutes long

Fucking hell, 40 minutes. Does someone pop around halfway through selling ice-cream?

[Chest Rockwell]

4 hours ago, ThumpSquids said:

When I began working in psychiatric units, I was surprised by the number of people self-admitting due to their attraction for underage people. The disgust they felt for their own paedophilic desires overcame the wish to act out on those desires, and allowed them to seek support in managing this. So, while you're correct to some degree, not all indulge in pederasty, which is certainly the greater crime.  

I know this happens but it all seems so strange and alien. How do you even go about helping someone to manage something like that? I assume you mean just manage not acting on their impulses, right? Surely it's not something you can 'cure'?

[ThumpSquids]

46 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I know this happens but it all seems so strange and alien. How do you even go about helping someone to manage something like that? I assume you mean just manage not acting on their impulses, right? Surely it's not something you can 'cure'?

No, most evidence highlights zero cure, sadly. There’s still quite a lot unknown about the affliction, despite family history studies, and a good deal more. Therapy was largely re-enactments, drama, role-play, practising what to do/say in ‘difficult’ situations. It was a disheartening and worrying place to work at times. There is, (or was at the time) good evidence though that a significant number of those seeking support, don’t go on to actually harm a child/ren. Unfortunately, it’s likely a minuscule number that do seek help.