CM Punk chat

[gmoney]

15 minutes ago, Chili said:

Oh that's a lovely reference. 

Wait for it, my partner lives in France, I was cutting a tree and I've accidentally bruised my sternum pushing the sheers against a hard branch. It's hurts like hell.

Then a Mondeo laughed.

I'm struggling to see how your partner living in France has a bearing on that anecdote? Hope your sternum recovers quickly though. 

[TheBurningRed]

Ice Cubes son has the worst and most brain dead opinions on wrestling anyway. One of worst on twitter. Even before the whole AEW shit came up. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think expecting people to live by an arbitrarily high moral bar is something that you used to only hear from Daily Mail loons.

Every time there was an Occupy protest, they'd sneer and say 'ooh look they've got Apple laptops and starbucks coffees', like that somehow invalidated their opinions.

People should expect people not to commit heinous crimes, and if they do they should expect them to be prosecuted. That's about it.

[SuperBacon]

12 minutes ago, TheBurningRed said:

Ice Cubes son has the worst and most brain dead opinions on wrestling anyway. One of worst on twitter. Even before the whole AEW shit came up. 

I have no idea about any of that but I've heard his Dads mental views on some subjects as well, so maybe like Father like son.

[tiger_rick]

3 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

If you've not watched a movie that had involvement from Harvey Weinstein since the #MeToo allegations i'd be absolutely amazed. Everyone does, all the time. That's engaging with a piece of shit. Should HMV stop selling the DVD's? (or whoever sells films anymore), should they all be pulled from Netflix? Should otherwise progressive actors return their royalties? No, because that's nuts.

There's probably a good chance I haven't but that's by the by. No-one is being asked to re-write history. Especially in a massively varied industry like that. There are no new Weinstein movies for for a reason but if there was, then no, of course they shouldn't be sold or bought.

Pro-wrestling isn't that varied, Vince McMahon has pretty much been the entire industry for our lifetimes. This has been a live situation for a long time. People have continued to support his company since the Ashley Massaro allegations. Since Vince "stepped down" in disgrace in 2022. Since he moved aside again recently. And they do now, even though those who enabled or ignored his behaviour are still there. 

This isn't really the thread for it because Punk shouldn't be singled out here. But until there's a proper investigation, a clearing out - from the top - of the people who are complicit and a real commitment to change, then no-one should be buying what these cunts are selling. And, to be clear, as long as the opposition are employing people like Ric Flair, then the same goes for them too. Clear out people who are no good. Put better people in key positions and commit to creating a safe environment and not repeating the mistakes.

I'm not Jim Cornette, but that's my opinion.

[Supremo]

El Hijo De Ice Cube didn’t appear to be saying anything we haven’t heard a million times before. There’s a certain subset of fans, raised exclusively on WWE content, that are incapable of consuming a product that doesn’t spoon feed them. It’s essentially people going on Twitter and proclaiming this, without irony.

Everything has to be explained. Everything needs a video package. Everything needs to be replayed. You must be reminded of what happened, “moments ago….” Brute force exposition. Zero storytelling in the matches themselves. Only promos and recaps count.

There’s probably something to the idea that AEW and WWE are opposite ends of the spectrum, and AEW have been guilty of assuming far more knowledge than the casual fan has. The debut of The Butcher and Blade being the perfect example. What a terrible bit of TV. Super awkward and jarring. But of the two, I find AEW’s approach much easier to consume. It’s not that different than any other TV show or film, where you discover and learn about a character by what they say and do. I genuinely wonder how the hardcore tribal WWE fans watch any other medium. Who the fuck is the Walter White guy? How am I supposed to understand what’s going on without a vignette before he appears on my screen?

Plus, it’s gone on long enough now to know most of it is in bad faith anyway. Once a month the, “but what’s the story,” crew pop up, complaining an AEW match is just happening for the sake of it. But then on that very show they’ll air vignettes on guys you may not know, have promos and the match itself tell a clear, coherent story, with the commentators banging the drum hard on what’s going on, giving out all the who, what, where and why that you need, and yet none of it will be acknowledged. No-one will hold their hands up and say they were wrong. It’ll just rinse and repeat next time. They pretend it’s “constructive criticism,” but it just feels like more bonkers tribalism, as if having two major promotions isn’t the best thing to happen to the business in literal decades.

Anyway, Phil sucks. DM Hunk says so.

Edited February 28 by Supremo

[Chris B]

I just love that there are people on social media saying, with their whole chest, that they find wrestling shows too complicated to understand. 

They also often seem to be particularly confused by Japanese or Mexican wrestlers for some reason.

[Chili]

24 minutes ago, gmoney said:

I'm struggling to see how your partner living in France has a bearing on that anecdote? Hope your sternum recovers quickly though. 

I'm in France, sorry typed it all arse backwards.

[BomberPat]

I saw someone put the "who is he? Where are the video packages?" argument in context I had never really considered recently - so, we can probably agree that the reason a lot of people criticise AEW for not "telling stories" (discounting those who make this criticism disingenuously) is because they see "wrestling match" and "story" as two distinct parts of the show, because that tends to be how things go in WWE; the story is told through promos and angles, the match is a means to an end. If anything, the story often contradicts what happens in the match. So when they argue that they're not given an "introduction" to a new character, it's because they can't comprehend that the match itself is the introduction - that's the first time you see this person wrestling, and wrestling is what they do, what more intro is needed?

 

But as @Chris B said, "why won't they tell me who this is?" is a criticism that seems exclusively to be leveled at Japanese or Mexican wrestlers booked in AEW. 

[DavidB6937]

4 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

So what you’re saying is you only read certain posts of a thread rather than the what people generally do on a forum and read the conversation. Makes sense.

Devon rightly challenged me and I think led to a good discussion about his stances and what that means to people. And it’s the number 1 thing that I respect of him, to use his position to be what he declared himself to be, the voice of the voiceless. 

Sorry to go back to something hours ago but I was working.

My post was in good faith by trying to raise your awareness of how you behave and how your posts are perceived sometimes. There's very much an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" mentality a lot of the time, and this can lead you into arguments that go round and round and round. I've been in them! And I get it, I completely understand why you are how you are and why you see things in certain ways, which is why I think sometimes you need someone to point things out to you or explain why people react the way they do.

So I hope you can take that on board rather than your natural reaction which is to just fling it back and blame the other person. Not trying to start an argument or anything but we've had other cases where actually sometimes just people need a little guidance, they've listened and actually become better posters because of it. It's obvious that you're a decent bloke and a decent poster and there's stuff there that's a worthy contribution. I just understand why people can get a little frustrated with the approach.

I'd just rather be level headed with you than keep falling into the trap of pointless endless arguments and frustration which is easy to do.

[tiger_rick]

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

I think the size of the WWE in particular will mean it's not always that cut and dry. And  to be honest your 'line' chiefly seems to come off as "I used to do what you guys do, now I don't, please hear about it loads." I'm not for a second disputing your merit or right to do that because the counterbalance is clearly needed, but it is what it is. 

I don't want that to be the case, which is why I just don't post at times. Time for that again, I think. 

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

The argument becomes about "Can or should you drop one of your primary interests/hobbies/form of escapism".

  I don't think it is, personally. I think it's how can this be one of your primary interests/hobbies/form of escapism with what you know? For instance, how can anyone discuss the booking of Rhodes/Rock/Reigns and not be overwhelmed with disgust that the booker is Vince McMahon's son-in-law, is (probably) married to the woman who led a "Thank You, Vince" chant after his previous allegations, is still in place and getting away with telling the industry "media" that he didn't even read the documents? I accept that there are plenty of wrestling fans out there who want Chris Benoit in the hall of fame so I appreciate there's a bottom-feeder element who could never be reasonable but I find that harder with people who's opinion I respect, if I'm honest.

33 minutes ago, The Gaffer said:

The industry is going nowhere and neither is people's enjoyment of it. Not supporting it is a discussion - and you should have it - but there's another discussion that can run in parallel to that. That's the discussion that - if we're being honest - the industry isn't going anywhere and so the main way it's going to have to make big changes positively is from within. And that people still engaged with the industry will be the prime movers and influencers in that. And that that sort of should happen because as much as wrong'uns still make money from it, thousands of really great people still feed their families from it too and don't particularly want your dreams of wrestling just popping out of existence like a soap bubble to come to fruition. 

That's a good point. I think I've touched on it above. Change won't come while everyone does the fuck all they're doing now though, I know that.

[Chili]

11 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

Sorry to go back to something hours ago but I was working.

My post was in good faith by trying to raise your awareness of how you behave and how your posts are perceived sometimes. There's very much an "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" mentality a lot of the time, and this can lead you into arguments that go round and round and round. I've been in them! And I get it, I completely understand why you are how you are and why you see things in certain ways, which is why I think sometimes you need someone to point things out to you or explain why people react the way they do.

So I hope you can take that on board rather than your natural reaction which is to just fling it back and blame the other person. Not trying to start an argument or anything but we've had other cases where actually sometimes just people need a little guidance, they've listened and actually become better posters because of it. It's obvious that you're a decent bloke and a decent poster and there's stuff there that's a worthy contribution. I just understand why people can get a little frustrated with the approach.

I'd just rather be level headed with you than keep falling into the trap of pointless endless arguments and frustration which is easy to do.

I'm more excited for you guys sexual tension that Ruby Soho and Cool Hand Ang.

[SuperBacon]

4 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

For instance, how can anyone discuss the booking of Rhodes/Rock/Reigns and not be overwhelmed with disgust that the booker is Vince McMahon's son-in-law, is (probably) married to the woman who led a "Thank You, Vince" chant after his previous allegations, is still in place and getting away with telling the industry "media" that he didn't even read the documents?

Rick honestly this shit will drive you mental.

Everyone is different and everyone has their own line, morality and ethics.

Just because you feel like that (and I'm not saying you're wrong to) doesn't mean other people will as well.

And some people will watch WWE and still be disgusted by the allegations. How can you not be?

But you're not me and I'm not you. You don't have the same ethics and morals as me and I don't have the same ethics and morals as you.

You can be absolutely disgusted by that if you want, I really don't care if I'm being honest (not in an arrogant way, but I don't) but back to my original point, this will drive you mad. And I'm not an amoral person, I have plenty of ethics which I do my best to live by, even work by and instill in my children.

But at some point I had to just accept that not everyone is the same.

Also, don't stop posting. I think I speak for everyone when I say we all missed you during your hiatus, especially your bakes. 

 

*sorry if some of that comes off as patronising, you're an intelligent guy and that really wasn't my intention.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

Thank you for all the vignettes you've provided me on Ice Cube Jr. I didn't really know anything about him but now I know. 

[Chili]

If you feel it's immoral to watch wrestling because of some of the types involved, and don't eat certain bread because of a CEO or because a musician is difficult then you have to be hard-line about everything surely. No exceptions. Some drugs are illegal, so you'd have to be against anyone or any art influenced by that surely too. Absolutely any company that's ethically difficult in the past would be a no go? That's practically nearly everything. For what? I don't think anyone would be impressed and it just affects the one person. You'd be denying yourself of everything bar Daniel O'Donnell records.