The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[Fatty Facesitter]

9 minutes ago, air_raid said:

It takes major gloss off Cody dethroning Reigns and being confirmed as the new "top guy" if he's terminating a reign of 4-6 weeks rather than a Universal run of 2 1/2 years and combined WWE Championship run of a year. There's a reason Ryback didnt get a cup of coffee with the belt ; they wanted Punk to have a lengthy and record-setting title run before he was knocked off the mountain by The Rock for the maximum satisfaction. This is the same kind of deal. Except bigger, because it's not for a nostalgia act to walk the belt into Mania so Cena can have it back, we're crowning a new guy. People won't be as crazy for Cody if he doesn't end THE reign of Roman, just A reign of Roman.

Romans Reigns. Heh.

You are entirely correct in your assessment. But it isn't what I want to see happen, so I'm going to completely ignore what you just said and say you're wrong. 

[Slapnut]

I think my biggest issue with Sami getting the Roman match at Elimination Chamber rather than Wrestlemania is that the outcome is now fairly obvious. There’s just absolutely no way Sami is winning that match, whereas I wouldn’t be so sure at Mania. Yeah, I’m sure it’ll still be immense at EC, but I don’t think I’ll be quite as invested.

[Nick James]

We pretty much know Sami isn't winning at EC, but we don't know HOW Sami isn't winning so there is still a huge amount of intrigue in the match for me. Will Sami almost win? Will Jey get involved and which side will he be on? Will Roman acknowledge Sami? It's hardly just a one on one on a B-show until we get to the main dance, the whole story is still there to be told for me. 

[Fatty Facesitter]

15 minutes ago, Slapnut said:

I think my biggest issue with Sami getting the Roman match at Elimination Chamber rather than Wrestlemania is that the outcome is now fairly obvious. There’s just absolutely no way Sami is winning that match, whereas I wouldn’t be so sure at Mania. Yeah, I’m sure it’ll still be immense at EC, but I don’t think I’ll be quite as invested.

This is partly why I want to see him prosper and win. Because in our minds, we know he isn't winning, and even though the hometown crowd will play along and we'll all likely be suckered into some sort of suspension of disbelief, it would be such a monumental shock and one of the biggest live pops of all time if they actually went ahead and have Sami win. The look of sheer disbelief and delirious jubilation amongst the crowd would make it a moment to remember forever. Imagine the tears as he embraces Kevin Owens tightly in the ring afterwards. He'd probably dive into the crowd and be crowd-surfed around the entire arena. 

I know it won't happen because of Cody and I understand why. No shade on him. But for fuck's sake, you've got a chance to make not one, but two guys here when Roman is probably fucking off until Summerslam anyway for a well-earned rest. 

Yes, Cody ending THE reign of Roman makes more sense. Even Kevin and Sami taking the tag belts makes sense. But when will they get the chance to create such a monumental moment like this again in shocking the world and making so many people utterly overwhelmed with joy at the same time?

 

 

[BomberPat]

There's definitely story to be told beyond Elimination Chamber, and if anyone can make me care about pivoting from a World Title shot to a Tag Team Title match at Wrestlemania (assuming that's the plan), it's Sami Zayn. But WWE generally don't have a good track record with losses being as meaningful as wins - a heartbreaking defeat could be just as important a part of Sami Zayn's story as a win over Roman would be (I'd argue the same would be true for Cody coming up short against Roman too), but I have little faith in WWE being able to follow-up on it in a satisfactory manner, because their track record in giving wrestlers a sense of forward momentum in spite of a big loss isn't great.

It's very difficult to pivot from "challenging for the World Title" to "being content challenging for the Tag Team Titles" without looking like you're either slumming it in the midcard, or never really belonged in the main event. 

Part of the problem is that the way we consume WWE's stories (and this is largely a problem of their own making) is with this kind of meta-analysis of what they "should" do and of what external factors are going to play into their decision-making. How will the Usos factor into the match at Elimination Chamber, given that Jimmy likely can't enter Canada? If they're likely heading back to Saudi Arabia in the Spring, they're probably not going to put the belt on Sami Zayn if he's not going over there. 

 

I agree that it's as much about how Sami loses as anyone, and I'm going to go against my best instincts and hope that WWE have figured something out there. That they remembered at Royal Rumble that Jey Uso is as much the heart of this story as anyone gives me some misguided optimism, and there's potentially a few months of storytelling to be mined in the story being a gradual collapse of The Bloodline, or of Roman's closest allies seeing through him and deserting him, rather than the simpler story of Sami going it alone. Though I imagine that Jey will eventually get browbeaten into working alongside Roman again after only the briefest of hints of a babyface turn, and maybe the Usos drama is purely a way to kayfabe justify them not appearing at the PPV.

While I'd love to see Sami Zayn as champion, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a short reign before the year is out - particularly if the belts end up split again - the crux of the story doesn't need him beating Roman for the title, it just needs him beating Roman. It's not a Bryan Danielson story where he's fighting against the perception that he's not championship material, it's a personal issue between him and Reigns, and while having the belt involved in that story adds stakes, it's not the heart of the story. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Roman takes some time off after dropping the belts, and I wonder if the way to do that is to have Sami face him at the first post-Mania PPV and send him packing. Though I also assume that at some point down the line they're going to want to turn Roman Reigns babyface again, and I can't shake the feeling that Paul Heyman is going to turn on him and side with Solo Sikoa to take him out.

[DavidB6937]

The Sami/Roman EC thing reminds me of Clash at the Castle. I suppose you could argue maybe there was more of a possibility that Roman could lose there but a lot of people didn't think so beforehand and yet you can't argue that it was a great match and an amazing atmosphere and completely worth doing.

So there's no way that they'll be at EC and everyone will be sat on their hands because they KNOW Sami isn't winning. That crowd is going to will him on until that ref's hand hits the mat for the third time and still fucking love Sami to death after.

Sometimes I wish I didn't know a lot of the industry shit that we talk about because imagine following all this without it. Just to be completely and utterly invested purely on the storyline playing out in front of you like other TV shows or whatever. There would be no "well Sami wont win because Cody Rumble Mania blah blah". You'd be all in.

[HarmonicGenerator]

Would Sami vs Roman at EC have to be for the title? Sami could still beat him, and storyline wise it's more about their relationship than the title so you still get closure there. Roman stays champion, but he's not invulnerable anymore, which gives Cody that extra bit of momentum to take the title off him. Reigns, now being beaten twice, slinks off, but Cody's still the champ and Sami's defeated the bastard. 

I appreciate I've not been watching and only read the recaps, but aside from @air_raid needing to bring out the "did a champion lose a non-title match" post again, wouldn't that be okay?

[DavidB6937]

He hasn't been pinned since like 2019 or something ridiculous. Title or no title, they're not giving that away. Could end up with a DQ win at best.

[air_raid]

In principle I'm not against the idea and there IS a time & place for non title matches, however....

38 minutes ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Roman stays champion, but he's not invulnerable anymore, which gives Cody that extra bit of momentum to take the title off him.

.... For me, it gives Roman an excuse. The loss to Zayn was in his head, that's why he lost. I know its in the nature of heels to make excuses, but I don't want the fucker to have one lined up going in. I want him at the peak of his power and confidence for Cody to knock him off.

Still can't believe in 2023 I'm keen for Cody Rhodes to win the big belt. What a time to be alive.

[simonworden]

In terms of what Pat said about pivoting from a world title to a tag title, I don't see it as a downgrade for Sammy unless the basically drop the storyline in the run up to Mania. Instead it's a prime time in the storyline for him to repair his relationship with Kevin Owens and focus on taking down Jimmy Uso and Solo Sikoa (assuming he is on the outside) who has assaulted him and possible an Jey Uso for his attack on Owens. They can even add in that they want to do the best job they can of keeping them away from the title fight so its Cody/Roman 1 on 1. 

Although Night 1 will probably end with one of the Women's matches, I reckon the tag title match should be given 30 bloody minutes and close out the show with Sami/ Owens holding the belts up. All 4 of those gents definitely deserve the rub of being in a show closing main event at Mania.

Sami/ Roman can then be kept on the boil while Roman gets his rematch and then we have the final big Sami/ Roman match down the line at possibly Summerslam. I'm not 12 anymore so Mania to Summerslam flies by and I'm ok with that.

[CavemanLynn]

If they can Freebird-rule the tag belt onto Solo, then Sami winning the tag belts for him and Owens at WM after Jey runs in and saves him from a knockout superkick from Jimmy would be mega. Then in the post-match, Sikoa can go ape, Spiking the Usos, reuniting the brothers, before all four gang up and run him out of the ring. Continuing the saga with Solo and Heyman vs Sami & KO (who'd be defending the belts alongside) and the Usos until Reigns returns in the summer would be a great little run.

[Jonny Vegas]

With 6 weeks between EC and Wrestlemania it just seems like a lot of TV to fill with Reigns/Cody and Uso's/Sami&KO being broken into seperate feuds potentially.

I suppose there could be a little more mileage in it if Zayn comes closes to beating Reigns at EC but due to interference from Jimmy is stopped. Jey comes down and teased helping Sami to which Owens comes out followed by Solo and a 4 on 2 ensues.

Cody then comes down and clears house then there's loads of conotations and combinations to cover 6 weeks of TV.

I love Sami and hes been brilliant throughout but should he be WWE champion? No.

People getting a turn with the title because they've been entertaining or popular in the role they're doing away from being champion is in my opinion a big problem they've had recently.

 

[FUM]

I’m still not getting some of the suggestions on how winning the tag titles and The Usos still helping Roman at EC or some guy who hasn’t had any involvement in this two year storyline taking his title is justice. I get folk want this crowning a new star moment but I feel much more rewarded in my wrestling and TV with logical conclusions to storylines. I don’t just mean Sami/Bloodline, Romans reign as a whole is an over two year arc. I feel Roman needs entirely brought down with EVERYONE walking out on him with the exception of Heyman who is a weasel anyway and the final punch/pin should be someone who has links to the story. This is more than the title now for me - this is essentially Tony Soprano needing a fade to black for this handsome entertaining nasty bastard.

Maybe they’ll change my mind. I know I’m harping on about this and appear to be in the minority but no harm to Cody, it’s just not his job to finish this.

I just can’t get on board with the train of thought above around it being a problem they have had making popular people champion - won’t let me quote. We’ve had the same champion for two years. Historically, the people who got over away from being champion is who they made champion to see if they could become a big star. It was always the formula, the big problem for me is they STOPPED doing that and instead went with their own trusted hands rather than the wrestler who became popular.

Edited February 3, 2023 by FUM

[DavidB6937]

6 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

People getting a turn with the title because they've been entertaining or popular in the role they're doing away from being champion is in my opinion a big problem they've had recently.

 

And if it was someone on a level of a Liv Morgan then I'd completely agree with this. But it's not.

Sami's a veteran. He's been around the block a few times.

He's also been arguably THE integral part in getting the Bloodline angle to where it is. The angle being probably the best thing in wrestling at the moment.

You're not handing the guy the title to be nice and it not making any real sense. It makes complete sense. It's a natural logical completion to the story.

Is he the guy they want as champ long term? No. But does every title run have to be long term? We're coming to the end of a years long one. They can afford to have a shorter one now.

[BomberPat]

7 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

 

People getting a turn with the title because they've been entertaining or popular in the role they're doing away from being champion is in my opinion a big problem they've had recently.

 

"Recently"? Roman Reigns has been WWE champion for almost a year and Universal Champion since August 2020. Before that, the WWE champions were Brock Lesnar and Bobby Lashley going back to January 2022, and the Universal Championship was swapped around the same five people since 2017.