Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[CavemanLynn]

5 minutes ago, LWOLeN said:

If you don’t have have the funds and means to provide a safe working place, than you should not be in the wrestling business. It’s not rocket science.

 

 

100% agreed. It's time wrestling was held to the same standards as any other business. If a promotion can't afford to operate safely and legally, it closes. Simple.

Edited June 22, 2020 by CavemanLynn

[tony1234]

2 minutes ago, LWOLeN said:

If you don’t have have the funds and means to provide a safe working place, than you should not be in the wrestling business. It’s not rocket science.

 

 

Any two bob promoter can put on a show or set up a training school, how many promoters now try and run without adequate insurance for one ? Football had the FA and they did fuck all about the likes of Bennell for years so wrestling hasn't a chance of being regulated.

The only thing that should happen is that there are proper laws and criminal charges brought upon any abusers , if you don't nothing will change 

[Loki]

4 hours ago, neil said:

No one other than Moo can do it. But it's very easy to sign up for a new account. If you don't want to do that because you value your post count that much, then I don't know what to tell you.

Unless this forum is unique amongst  bulletin boards, the permissions to change user names could be given by Moo to other admins or mods.  

I’ve never really understood why one absentee landlord keeps all the higher admin powers to themselves.  I appreciate this is out of your hands Neil but it’s just another instance of this odd setup holding things back.

As for starting a new account, I can imagine long long term users might not want to lose their history here, but if that’s the only option 🤷‍♂️

Edited June 22, 2020 by Loki

[biggs]

37 minutes ago, Hoptimus said:

This has all been a very sad and depressing long weekend. 

In regards to regulating the business a number of independent promotions in the UK work to an already tight budget and have some of the talent double up to do other duties. 

If you are a promotion that runs a town hall once a month draws 350-400 fans each month at a £12-15 ticket price you have all the various overhead to cover. You have venue, talent fees, event marketing, travel and accommodation. If the promotion doesn't own its own ring then ring hire, production that's not included with the venue hire. There will be other costs that I will have possibly missed. 

Most promotions will struggle to add the cost of professional people in such as on hand medical personnel for all events. 

The wrestlers and anyone backstage might not be willing to pay for any disclosure checks. You could have a scenario where talent are looking for promoters to foot the bill for PVG checks but then the promoter may turn around and say you don't get this yourself you don't get work. Independent wrestling is run on a shoestring budget at times and people will cut costs at every chance to make themselves more profitable. I just hope the industry gets together and is on the same page and there is some sort of regulation and people get themselves disclosure checks.  

I think this is the danger - people won't pay. It really isn't a case of can't. A transferable DBS is £13 a year. If a company cannot afford that for all their employees, they either shouldn't be running or only employ those willing to pay for one themselves. If it is a case of they don't make much money - neither does youth football but any FA affiliated club is expected to give answers to the questions in my original post. 

The reality is, as parents you shouldn't ever consider allowing your child to go anywhere that can't answer those questions - it leaves your child open to the kind of horrific abuse described by KFogg above. That's not blaming parents - we put trust in people who appear authorative or who position themselves as experts in their field. The reality is though, without independent regulation, it becomes quite literally, a playground ripe for predatory behaviour. 

As fans, or indeed promoters, it's very noble to post worthy and woke comments on socials or forums, expressing disappointment or outrage. But if we pay money to these companies, who at best turn a blind eye to any kind of abuse, we are enabling it. 

Moving forward, as a wrestling fan of 30 years, but more importantly someone who has spent their career working with vulnerable children (the type who are often drawn to wrestling), I am unwilling to enable this behaviour anymore. 

It's a stretch, but could a voluntary code of safeguarding practise, assessed by an independent board of fans and ex industry people (Elisar, Len...) with experience in this area, be a way forward? 

It's an utter mess, with an engrained and utterly awful  culture of violent or sexual abuse, mysoginy and the manipulation of the vulnerable at its core. We can be part of the solution... As wrestling like this is utterly abhorrent. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by biggs
Spelling

[HarmonicGenerator]

3 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

The problem with all of these promotions changing their structure or appointing Welfare Officers is that they are all appointing people from inside the industry. That's fine to a certain degree as they will have an understanding of the business.

Couple of pages late to reply to this but I’d argue that’s the furthest thing from fine. Somebody with no “understanding of the business” is far more likely to disregard any defence of “that’s wrestling” or “it’s how the business works” or “paying dues” and call it out for the bullshit it is.

So sorry for your experiences @AVM and @Kfogg1991 and well done for telling your stories.

[LWOLeN]

This weekend has completely turned pro wrestling upside down. It proved that the promoters and wrestlers are the ‘actual’ marks in their fantasy universe and that we the fans are a lot smarter than we ever got credit for.

I can enjoy good wrestling, but nobody has to  indirectly get molested, abused and dropped on his head at age 14 to make a wrestling show possible for me. 

It seems that the most dangerous ‘hold’ in pro wrestling is not the illusion of a strangling move in the ring but the reality of all the abusive control and mind games exercised outside it.

This weekend shows that wrestling’s most bloodiest and ‘realest’ brawls do not occur in the ring but in its locker rooms, training sessions, car rides and hotels where greed, abuse and betrayal is routinely practiced with no scripted outcome. 

Needles to produce charisma.

Pills to reduce pain.

An eventual OD, suicide or heartattack as a finish.

Abuse and manipulation as just ‘paying your dues.

I’m so disappointed in independent wrestling as I know how fun it could be when done right.

[Cannibal Man]

Yeah, the idea of it needing to be ran tinpot is for the benefit of people who want to take advantage of that way of doing business. Vince did it to get a tax break and so he doesn't have to treat anyone as an employee. The big leagues make it normal and that wafts down to everything beneath.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Cannibal Man

[PowerButchi]

The idea that people in Wrestling or have been in Wrestling should be the ones to regulate it doesn't work for me. 

[SuperBacon]

8 minutes ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Couple of pages late to reply to this but I’d argue that’s the furthest thing from fine. Somebody with no “understanding of the business” is far more likely to disregard any defence of “that’s wrestling” or “it’s how the business works” or “paying dues” and call it out for the bullshit it is.

So sorry for your experiences @AVM and @Kfogg1991 and well done for telling your stories.

I say 'to a certain degree'. The next bit of my post says "However, if they are to be serious about this, then they need to look outside of the business and how other organisations operate. I have no doubt whatsoever (from the training and experience I have) that someone who has worked/coached young people in football/rugby/hockey or whatever would have a million times better insight into how the promotions can strengthen their safeguarding of young people."

The ideal would be I guess, trusted people (hard at the moment I know) from within the business and safeguarding experts from outside of the industry.

 

[tiger_rick]

You don't necessarily to DBS all wrestlers to put on a show where everyone is an adult. There's no other sport where that happens. However, if you're going to train ANYONE or work with under 18s then everyone involved should be checked.

Anyone who doesn't want to be checked, the answer is simple, work only shows that are exclusively over 18s and limit your own opportunities. 

[Jonny Vegas]

43 minutes ago, Hoptimus said:

This has all been a very sad and depressing long weekend. 

In regards to regulating the business a number of independent promotions in the UK work to an already tight budget and have some of the talent double up to do other duties. 

If you are a promotion that runs a town hall once a month draws 350-400 fans each month at a £12-15 ticket price you have all the various overhead to cover. You have venue, talent fees, event marketing, travel and accommodation. If the promotion doesn't own its own ring then ring hire, production that's not included with the venue hire. There will be other costs that I will have possibly missed. 

Most promotions will struggle to add the cost of professional people in such as on hand medical personnel for all events. 

The wrestlers and anyone backstage might not be willing to pay for any disclosure checks. You could have a scenario where talent are looking for promoters to foot the bill for PVG checks but then the promoter may turn around and say you don't get this yourself you don't get work. Independent wrestling is run on a shoestring budget at times and people will cut costs at every chance to make themselves more profitable. I just hope the industry gets together and is on the same page and there is some sort of regulation and people get themselves disclosure checks.  

It's not unreasonable to ask wrestlers, referee's, valet's etc to pay for their own yearly PVG check which they could be required to be shown as valid and in date in order to be booked on a show. I have a few pals who've worked the doors up in Scotland and they need to pay for an SIA licence to do so.

Budget for me isn't an argument because it's so easily sorted like that.

I would imagine that driving instructor's, private tutors for things such as music even for adults etc. all also need to pay for their own PVG checks and if wrestling trainers dont already then thats crazy.

The problem is were not talking about a scandal here where convicted sex offenders are now being unveiled as having been involved and PVG checks may have protected people from the harm they committed.

We're talking about people largely were thought of or believed to be ok people who have flown and been allowed to fly completely under the radar of any authority or repercussions.

Without creating an environment where people can trust they're safe to speak out or raise concerns about those committing the abuse without fear of ridicule or being persecuted by various means for speaking out then sadly people are going to continue to do it.

[tiger_rick]

3 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

The idea that people in Wrestling or have been in Wrestling should be the ones to regulate it doesn't work for me. 

Ultimately, this is true. But it's unlikely anyone else is going to therefore improving their own promotions and protecting themselves and their talent is the best short term option.

[Your Fight Site]

I realise that this is my clientele but the, “wrestling is already ran on a shoestring budget” narrative whenever the potential cost of health and safety is brought up really irks me. Like, why is that a defence? No wrestling promoter is “owed” a livelihood. I appreciate that’s a terribly narrow-minded and cynical way to look at things.

Something needs to change. I ran a wrestling show when I was 18. It was an unmitigated disaster. I was able to put a show on from saving a few months’ wages from my weekend job and being able to contact wrestlers through MySpace to book them. The ring broke at least twice during the show and someone could have been seriously hurt. Thankfully, they weren’t. But there was no way I should have been able to put on a show that easily.

If getting into promoting is more difficult from a mandated requirements and credentials point of view (rather than because it’s a closed door, old boys club) then I don’t really see that as a bad thing.

[Hoptimus]

Agree with what all has said. 

It's just that there will be a number of promotions who have continued to exist based on running things to a very tight budget in order to keep running. 

Some promotions may not wish to incur any costs and feel as they have done nothing wrong they shouldn't need to fork out for the expense. I agree those that think like that should maybe not promote anymore.

I'm all for regulating things and having the necessary measures put in place to make it that a promoter is first and foremost making a conscious effort to safeguard talent and any minors involved with the event. The second to be trustworthy for the fans to purchase tickets. 

[thatvinylgeek]

On 6/21/2020 at 6:05 AM, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

Outside of this these stories are horrible and bringing back some memories of some of the darker and shitter side of wrestling. I was never truly "one of the boys"... frankly I was too "nice / boring". But I saw hints of things and it's a gut punch to realise a lot of what I saw was merely the tip of the iceberg. 

Like Mr Coyne (good to "see" you buddy) I was never truly "one of the boys" during my few years working shows, I was a bit older, settled down, and frankly pretty boring. However, too now see some people I once considered at the least acquaintances and at the most good friends, talked about in this light is truly shocking and leaves a terrible taste in my mouth. A lot of the guys people are talking about I first met when they were barely "adults" themselves, and to think they are carrying out this kind of abhorrent behaviour is truly shocking.

Even back then there was such excitement when a "girl" came to training, and it was almost a fight to see who could get their number first without ever worrying about how old they actually were. There was one such girl (who thankfully had her head screwed on) that pretty much everyone took an interest in to the point it made me feel so uncomfortable that I befriended her and asked her to let me know if she ever felt uncomfortable....as she was barely 14 and I was 24 and in a (very) long term relationship, I never thought anything of it, or how it might like to others, she was like a little sister..... However there were several guys who were of a similar age to me who were literally asking her on nights out, as they "could get her in to clubs" to the point where I ended up talking to her mum, who ironically was nearer my age, and just giving her the heads up.

This was not the only instance of this kind of thing I saw...several of these guys who I guess household names in and around the midlands wrestling scene and would have girls, young girls, asking for autographs, pictures etc, and some of the guys were far too overly nice with girls of inappropriate ages.

Anyway, I digress, I have nothing of merit to add, I guess I just wanted to show some solidarity and say I can fully believe what I am now reading, and as much as my daughters love wrestling, based on my experiences I would NEVER let them start training at any age, and that is a very sad thing indeed.