Jordan 'minstrel' Myles

[The Maestro]

5 hours ago, Richard said:

I live in Blackpool. My friend owns a tattoo shop.

Is this the inked version of "I've got friends who are black"?

[tiger_rick]

6 hours ago, Richard said:

I live in Blackpool. 

You're right, that's no privilege. Poor whitey.

...

[StrongStyle]

Lanny Poffo had a night in to himself, it would seem. Didn't realise he had relocated to Blackpool.

[Chest Rockwell]

Alright I think this little thought experiment has run its course. Thanks. Let's wrap it up folks.

[Jonny Vegas]

10 hours ago, Carbomb said:

Again, we diverge. I do not believe historical influences are irrelevant. And I'm not "telling an entire race", I'm talking about the messages that come from groups who've had to struggle in the past and had their efforts undermined by specific individuals. As to whether or not such is detrimental, maybe it is, maybe it isn't - but I'm not about to tell BME people that their anger at those they consider collaborators is unjustified, just like you don't think it's justified.

I don't believe I'm going to convince you otherwise, and I don't think you are going to convince me, so I think we should agree to disagree.

I'm sorry but "let's agree to disagree" is the universal phrase for "I'm not able to back up my opinion with facts.

With all due respect you are the one who brought up uncle tom's and coconuts, two of the worst thing's a black person can be called that aren't racially derogatory.

You repeatedly have talked about historical factors however you do not even appear to be aware of the historical origins of the phrase Uncle Tom which comes from a novel where the titular character is beaten to death by his white slave master for refusing to give up the whereabouts of two female slaves who have escaped. 

It was so famous that it was credited by some as having an influence in the election of Abraham Lincoln. Racist white's at the time hated the novel and its depiction of black slaves as people with human emotions capable of making decisions for themselves and ironically considering the origin of this thread it was actually blackface minstrel style mock ups of it where Uncle Tom was changed to a subservient fool completely at the mercy of his white master.

When you call someone an Uncle Tom or a coconut or use those words to describe someone you are telling that person that they must behave a certain way or think a certain thing because they are black and black people should or shouldn't think or do this or that.

There really is no way around that and whether you realise it or want to admit it is fact.

At the moment you brought the words uncle tom and coconut into this discussion you were dictating how an entire race should or should not behave in your eyes based solely on their race.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Jonny Vegas

[Tamura]

3 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

At the moment you brought the words uncle tom and coconut into this discussion you were dictating how an entire race should or should not behave in your eyes based solely on their race.

As a point of pedantry, when Carbomb first used the phrase was here, quoting you using Jay Lethal's words. 

[BomberPat]

17 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I might be in the extreme minority here but for me if you look at that t-shirt and immediately your mind makes the immediate link to minstrels then I don't think thats very normal.

I don't think so at all. 

I showed it to two friends at the pub last night - both white, one in his mid-30s with an anthropology degree, the other in his mid-60s, a former teacher who grew up in Rhodesia. The latter took one look at it, with no broader context other than "it's a shirt for an African-American wrestler", and said, "fucking hell, it's like Tintin in the Congo".

8 hours ago, Richard said:

Look up bomberpat. Look up chest rockwell. Two of such well known forum members that i have slain with ease.

Sorry, who are you?

[Carbomb]

54 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I'm sorry but "let's agree to disagree" is the universal phrase for "I'm not able to back up my opinion with facts.

You haven't done that with yours either. You've just continually made an assertion backed by a general principle with no citation of evidence that it has or hasn't damaged the move towards equality, and it's largely based on an opinion as to how you think things should go, which is where the sticking point comes.

Quote

With all due respect you are the one who brought up uncle tom's and coconuts, two of the worst thing's a black person can be called that aren't racially derogatory.

You repeatedly have talked about historical factors however you do not even appear to be aware of the historical origins of the phrase Uncle Tom which comes from a novel where the titular character is beaten to death by his white slave master for refusing to give up the whereabouts of two female slaves who have escaped. 

It was so famous that it was credited by some as having an influence in the election of Abraham Lincoln. Racist white's at the time hated the novel and its depiction of black slaves as people with human emotions capable of making decisions for themselves and ironically considering the origin of this thread it was actually blackface minstrel style mock ups of it where Uncle Tom was changed to a subservient fool completely at the mercy of his white master.

As Tamura said, I didn't bring it up. 

And drop the whitesplaining. I read Uncle Tom's Cabin when I was 12. I also happen to be of mixed origins with a father from a former colony in which the depredations of the British empire and the treatment of creoles and former slaves were well recorded. 

You might want to read up on the abolition of slavery a bit. It wasn't abolished primarily because of humanitarian sentiments or the warning message of a book (though it may have helped), it was abolished because it became economically inviable. White slave owners were compensated, whilst the freed slaves weren't, and more black people died in the first year of emancipation through starvation from being unable to get paid work or being killed by whites than they did in the last year of slavery. 

History absolutely has a place in all this. It forms the basis of a creation of a culture, and in this case, the cultural ideologeme is the coinage of a term that connotes collaboration and betrayal of the black civil rights movement. Uncle Tom's Cabin wasn't written in isolation or without basis, and the term "Uncle Tom" does not exist in isolation - it wouldn't have any meaning without a historical basis.

Quote

When you call someone an Uncle Tom or a coconut or use those words to describe someone you are telling that person that they must behave a certain way or think a certain thing because they are black and black people should or shouldn't think or do this or that.

There really is no way around that and whether you realise it or want to admit it is fact.

I have my own experiences as a BME person (with "passing" privilege, so I also acknowledge they are not as horrendous as those without it), and I am also aware of many of the experiences of others, with whom I regularly and frequently discuss these matters. As I have frequently said in this thread, I personally don't like to use the term, and I will think long and hard before I ever use it because it is a serious accusation to use. But what I will not do is tell other BME people like Jordan Myles, who, as a black American may have gone and is going through some horrendous shit that most people in this country can't even begin to imagine, that their sentiments regarding this matter are invalid, because their lived experiences lead them to that conclusion, or that the term is completely without foundation throughout the entirety of its history. People fucking died because of the actions of real-life Uncle Toms, both before and after abolition, and that is a fact. 

The most frustrating thing about this debate and your patronising is that I've been agreeing with you about the usage of the term. I just don't think it's my place to tell others whose experiences are closer that they're wrong. They've had enough white guys telling them that throughout their lives.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Carbomb

[chokeout]

[Thunderplex]

I'm very racist against Eskimos, as there are non where I live so I don't run the risk of getting the shit kicked out of me.

[Jonny Vegas]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

You haven't done that with yours either. You've just continually made an assertion backed by a general principle with no citation of evidence that it has or hasn't damaged the move towards equality, and it's largely based on an opinion as to how you think things should go, which is where the sticking point comes.

As Tamura said, I didn't bring it up. 

And drop the whitesplaining. I read Uncle Tom's Cabin when I was 12. I also happen to be of mixed origins with a father from a former colony in which the depredations of the British empire and the treatment of creoles and former slaves were well recorded. 

You might want to read up on the abolition of slavery a bit. It wasn't abolished primarily because of humanitarian sentiments or the warning message of a book (though it may have helped), it was abolished because it became economically inviable. White slave owners were compensated, whilst the freed slaves weren't, and more black people died in the first year of emancipation through starvation from being unable to get paid work or being killed by whites than they did in the last year of slavery. 

History absolutely has a place in all this. It forms the basis of a creation of a culture, and in this case, the cultural ideologeme is the coinage of a term that connotes collaboration and betrayal of the black civil rights movement. Uncle Tom's Cabin wasn't written in isolation or without basis, and the term "Uncle Tom" does not exist in isolation - it wouldn't have any meaning without a historical basis.

I have my own experiences as a BME person (with "passing" privilege, so I also acknowledge they are not as horrendous as those without it), and I am also aware of many of the experiences of others, with whom I regularly and frequently discuss these matters. As I have frequently said in this thread, I personally don't like to use the term, and I will think long and hard before I ever use it because it is a serious accusation to use. But what I will not do is tell other BME people like Jordan Myles, who, as a black American may have gone and is going through some horrendous shit that most people in this country can't even begin to imagine, that their sentiments regarding this matter are invalid, because their lived experiences lead them to that conclusion, or that the term is completely without foundation throughout the entirety of its history. People fucking died because of the actions of real-life Uncle Toms, both before and after abolition, and that is a fact. 

The most frustrating thing about this debate and your patronising is that I've been agreeing with you about the usage of the term. I just don't think it's my place to tell others whose experiences are closer that they're wrong. They've had enough white guys telling them that throughout their lives.

"Whitesplaining" ...there you go again.

What race am I? Should it have any relevance in two people having a discussion.

You don't know my race, I didn't know yours until you told me without me ever even considering it for a second. 

In your mind though I either must be white because I disagree about this and I'm trying to put my point across. Or I must be non white and acting in the manner of a white person...am I now infact...an Uncle Tom?

I don't feel the need to tell you my family background, history or experiences but please do not make hurtful and irrelevant assumptions.

At no time did I say Jordan Myles or anyone else didn't go through horrendous shit or that he or anyone's sentiments towards the matter or any other were invalid.

What I have said and continue to say is that labelling people's actions as blanket right or wrong based on nothing more than the colour of my skin, your skin or anyone else's skin is wrong. Nothing can change that. I'm actually astonished there are people who don't think the same. Regardless of race.

Myles calling people uncle Tom's and you calling people uncle Tom's and coconut's because they don't make decisions you and he think are appropriate for their race is outrageous.

Seeing as you pointed out the actions of some black people labelled as uncle Tom's actions resulted in the death of human beings is it appropriate for him to use that term in relation to matters such as being the ROH champion. I'd say its horrifically insensitive at best.

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Jonny Vegas

[Carbomb]

3 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

"Whitesplaining" ...there you go again.

What race am I?

At no time did I say Jordan Myles or anyone else didn't go through horrendous shit or that he or anyone's sentiments towards the matter or any other were invalid.

What I have said and continue to say is that labelling people's actions as blanket right or wrong based on nothing more than the colour of my skin, your skin or anyone else's skin is wrong. Nothing can change that. I'm actually astonished there are people who don't think the same. Regardless of race.

Myles calling people uncle Tom's and you calling people uncle Tom's and coconut's because they don't make decisions you and he think are appropriate for their race is outrageous.

Seeing as you pointed out the actions of some black people labelled as uncle Tom's actions resulted in the death of human beings is it appropriate for him to use that term in relation to matters such as being the ROH champion. I'd say its horrifically insensitive at best.

 

ONCE AGAIN: I DON'T CALL PEOPLE UNCLE TOMS. I DON'T LIKE IT. MY POINT IS THAT I'M NOT GOING TO TELL OTHER BLACK PEOPLE WHAT TO SAY OR NOT SAY. WHICH IS WHAT YOU CLAIM YOU'RE DOING.

And what you did was indeed whitesplaining. You patronisingly explained to me, a BME person, about the origin of the term "Uncle Tom" and what it connotes without once even considering that I might know what the fuck I'm talking about. I didn't ask you to supply a definition or a meaning, and I don't appreciate being patronised.

I don't care what you're astonished about. I don't grant your premise that it's "objectively wrong", because I have the humility to realise that other people's lived experiences influence their use of language and political perspectives.

It's like the use of the N-word. I personally cannot use it and would never use it - but whilst I don't like that some black people use it casually, and some hate it, I also appreciate that their perspective informs their argument as to whether or not they consider it damaging or reaffirming.

[DavidB6937]

Oh fuck. We're into the bold phase of the argument.

[Carbomb]

12 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

"Whitesplaining" ...there you go again.

What race am I? Should it have any relevance in two people having a discussion.

You don't know my race, I didn't know yours until you told me without me ever even considering it for a second. 

In your mind though I either must be white because I disagree about this and I'm trying to put my point across. Or I must be non white and acting in the manner of a white person...am I now infact...an Uncle Tom?

I don't feel the need to tell you my family background, history or experiences but please do not make hurtful and irrelevant assumptions.

Why not? You just did it to me. And it does have relevance, as I've explained twice. We're talking about the use of language, something that is formed and influenced by people's lived experiences. Instead of trying to prescribe for others as to what their use of language should be, maybe try asking them about it.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

4 hours ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Alright I think this little thought experiment has run its course. Thanks. Let's wrap it up folks.

Everyone is far to busy getting their DNA tested to take notice Chest.