CavemanLynn Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: When it comes to simple wrestling stories though, I'm not sure that washes. They've been the best at it for so long. I struggle with how matches and angles are so devoid of proper structure, planning and story telling. I don't know where those fundamentals went. Unless it was never Vince. Is that really Vince' forte though? He was a master promoter and salesman, and may have developed into one of the defining heel characters ever, but how much did he actually know about match structure and story? In matches, he was invariably working with 15-20 year veterans, likely with assistance from the stooges, so I doubt he was carrying much of the burden there. The stories of him sitting in Gorilla smiling at working bodyparts and old school psychology is countered by the quality of what he allows to go on in WWE matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) Plenty of people who have worked closely with Vince in the past have said Vince's strengths laid not in coming up with stories but with people bringing him good stories and he would think of small tweaks to change them from good to great. But it seems like he's intentionally developed a system over the past 2 decades that now stifles any good ideas getting through. Edited December 16, 2020 by LaGoosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 If Tony Khan remains in this position as a very very occasionally appearing CEO who it's acknowledged can book the matches then that's as good as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 5:48 PM, Chili said: This weeks BTE is truly wonderful. As much great stuff as there is in there (and how great is it to see Hangman having a good time again?), this is also an example of why BTE can't be on regular TV - the Speaking Spanglish intervention had such bad sound, it couldn't be broadcast. There's potential there, but it needs far more work to be TV ready. And I don't know if that would ruin some of the spontaneity that makes it so fun in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 1 hour ago, tiger_rick said: When it comes to simple wrestling stories though, I'm not sure that washes. They've been the best at it for so long. I struggle with how matches and angles are so devoid of proper structure, planning and story telling. I don't know where those fundamentals went. Unless it was never Vince. Yeah, I don't think that was ever Vince's strength - I'd be amazed if someone who had his first matches (unless you believe the stories of him working under a mask) in '98/'99, was a master wrestling storyteller twenty years prior to that. Vince has always been surrounded by people who know wrestling - from Gorilla Monsoon and Arnold Skaaland to Brisco and Patterson - and I would assume they tend to be the ones doing the busywork of putting stories together, and were certainly the ones responsible for finishes and the actual in-ring product. Vince's role, historically, tended to be to say, in broad terms, "this is the card for next year's Wrestlemania, how do we get there?", and then promote the hell out of it. As for what changed - that decline is in line with WWE becoming a publicly traded company; whether that's led to an aversion to take risks, or if it just means that the bigger the company gets the less time Vince McMahon can spend on silly inconsequential stuff like booking wrestling matches, I don't know. AEW's biggest strength and weakness in this regard is the freedom they give wrestlers. WWE has been so micro-managed, and so constrained by having to stick to the script, that nothing feels organic or urgent, and it's difficult for anyone to stand out from the pack and get themselves over because they're so reluctant to deviate from the plan and capitalise on what should be star-making performances. AEW, conversely, are letting wrestlers come up with their own stories, ad-lib their own promos, and wrestle their matches more or less without constraints. When you're a Jon Moxley or an Eddie Kingston, that's a tremendous boon to how much of a star you'll come across. When you're a Cody Rhodes it can quickly become self-indulgent. If you fall anywhere in the middle, you have the opportunity to stand out in a way that WWE seems purpose-built to prevent, but you also run the risk of your match looking exactly the same as the one before it, or repeating spots that have been done earlier in the night because there's no one governing it all and saying, "no suicide dives in this match, lads, there were six in the match before". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brudaker Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, BomberPat said: AEW, conversely, are letting wrestlers come up with their own stories, ad-lib their own promos, and wrestle their matches more or less without constraints. When you're a Jon Moxley or an Eddie Kingston, that's a tremendous boon to how much of a star you'll come across. When you're a Cody Rhodes it can quickly become self-indulgent. If you fall anywhere in the middle, you have the opportunity to stand out in a way that WWE seems purpose-built to prevent, but you also run the risk of your match looking exactly the same as the one before it, or repeating spots that have been done earlier in the night because there's no one governing it all and saying, "no suicide dives in this match, lads, there were six in the match before". Spot on. I think a great example of this is someone like Wardlow. The dude has had 15 matches in AEW and a bunch of those were squash matches on Dark but he's been presented as this huge threat, his only singes losses coming from Cody and Hangman. I know who he is, despite having almost no mic time, and I'm excited for a bunch of potential matches for him down the line (Hager, MJF, Luchasaurus, etc). He's been given the chance to work with and learn from people with vastly more experience than him while being protected, gaining exposure to the AEW audience, and having the strengths he already possesses utilised to help the current top guys like MJF, Jericho and Cody. Compare it to guys like Bronson, Matha, Bononi, Kato even someone like Thatcher or Lumis and I know what spot I'd rather be in. That's before even getting to all the folk who did well in NXT only to hit the main roster and do nothing forever. Does anyone think Olmos and Ryker are going to get the same chance to shine as Wardlow or Hobbs.(Ignoring the fact that that's probably for the best in Rykers case!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 If AEW get Wardlows eventual singles run right, the female demographic is going to explode. Most handsome man in wrestling. The ladies will come because they want to shag Wardlow, but they'll stick around and fall in love with the Hangman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCJ Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, LaGoosh said: Plenty of people who have worked closely with Vince in the past have said Vince's strengths laid not in coming up with stories but with people bringing him good stories and he would think of small tweaks to change them from good to great. But it seems like he's intentionally developed a system over the past 2 decades that now stifles any good ideas getting through. From what I heard, the only person who really stood up to Vince and told him his ideas were bad was Pat Patterson. Pat might have been more influential in WWE’s success than some may have realised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 8 hours ago, TomJones233 said: Make Khan a smarmy heel in Impact like right now He already is. The impact fans aren't meant to cheer the Tones big timing them and ripping the piss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 Hell yeah.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 Terrible news. Wardow has been removed from the 14 man tag match, due to travel/family reasons. They've got a fantastic replacement, though. They're making it a 12 man tag, and just dragging that useless cunt Brandon Cutler out of the match. What an endorsement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted December 16, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, IANdrewDiceClay said: They're making it a 12 man tag, and just dragging that useless cunt Brandon Cutler out of the match. What an endorsement. They probably have enough wrestlers in the back to tape another dozen matches for Dark though! Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted December 17, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) Anyone who complained about Dynamite being, “crash TV,” recently must have absolutely loved this show. A huge let down after the last two weeks, this was a mostly flat utility show. The only thing worth watching was Omega and Callis continuing to be the best dickheads going today. Some really vicious offence from Kenny, too. Fucking murdered Joey with that double stomp. Great stuff. It’s unbelievable how quickly Omega has become my favourite thing in wrestling since turning heel. You’d never think this was the same ice cold chump going 50/50 with unsigned talent. Schiavone continues to be the best too. He’s like the best uncle you’ve ever had. Him taking the piss out of Impact and telling Don to fuck off was awesome. Edited December 17, 2020 by Supremo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 If this pregnancy means Brandi is off tv, then it’s the best for everyone . For all they might come across as cunts onscreen, wish them the very best off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Showtime Posted December 17, 2020 Share Posted December 17, 2020 Yep that simple 10-second spell featuring the commentary trashing Impact, Janela smashing Kenny with a trash can out of nowhere, then Schiavone telling Don Callis to "kiss my ass" made the whole show. Brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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