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Well put David.

It's all well and good getting angry at WWE. They deserve it. They've handled it horrendously. However, what is wrong culturally inĀ  the USA that something like this can happen? There's reports out there that say the likelihood of rape happening in colleges, armed forces, workplace is extremely high. Is it a wider, "international",Ā problem of "lad" culture? We have our own similar issues here in the UK.

There's something wrong with the world.

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I cancelled. It's going to hurt me more than them but that's not really the point.

When the crux of your argument is nit-picking about how you feel a woman (because that's the word when you're talking about human beings, not "a female") should or shouldn't describe her own sexual as

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Do we have our own problems in the UK to that extent? I know a lot of women and none of them have ever been sexually assaulted or even harassed as seems to be the message online. If anything I think the likelihood is decreasing with the #MeToo and all that. Maybe I am really sheltered but I do work in public services and see a huge number and variety of people.

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52 minutes ago, David said:

ļ»æ We're not talking about faceless brown men who were claimed to have pickedļ»æ up arms against the US, and as such were seen by many as "fair game," we're talking aboutĀ accusing US armed forces of facilitating the rape of a white, blonde, US-born semi-celebrity female who was under their protection.

As simple and as sad as it is, I think theĀ reason it isn't much more of a story isĀ because "its wrestling", rather than anything else.

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11 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

Ā I know a lot of women and none of them have ever been sexually assaulted or even harassed as seems to be the message online.Ā 

I find that astronomically unlikely.

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3 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

As simple and as sad as it is, I think theĀ reason it isn't much more of a story isĀ because "its wrestling", rather than anything else.

Unfortunately I think this is very much the issue. I respect anybody that has cancelled their network subscriptions, but ultimately unless the mainstream media run with the story and people keep making a noise on social media, this will sadly blow over in a couple of weeks and normal service will resume.

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11 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I find that astronomically unlikely.

Agreed. I only found out relatively recently that some people close to me have been sexually assaulted (or had sexual assault attempted) in the past. The whole point of #MeToo was to point out how prevalent it really is. I know very few women that haven't, at some point, experienced at the very least sexual harassment or attempted sexual assault. Don't assume you'll know about it.

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I cannot believe the lack of traction that it's picking up on social media. It's taken me a couple of days to read through that affidavit as it's just so grim and frustrating. Are people exhausted from WWE outrage to the point where they just won't give another scandal the time of day?

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24 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

As simple and as sad as it is, I think theĀ reason it isn't much more of a story isĀ because "its wrestling", rather than anything else.

Maybe. I'm not so sure that a US female civilian being raped at a US military base can really be considered "wrestling."

This isn't a musclebound performer in spandex dying of a heart attack at 40, or innuendo about how female wrestlers are treated behind closed locker room doors,Ā although it being wrestling isĀ a good excuse for media who more than likely have no real hunger to pick up the story.

As I highlighted in my post earlier, the lack of coverage of the Abu Ghraib situation until there was simply no other option shows how reluctant the media in the US is to go down that route.

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17 minutes ago, BigJag said:

Well put David.

It's all well and good getting angry at WWE. They deserve it. They've handled it horrendously. However, what is wrong culturally inĀ  the USA that something like this can happen? There's reports out there that say the likelihood of rape happening in colleges, armed forces, workplace is extremely high. Is it a wider, "international",Ā problem of "lad" culture? We have our own similar issues here in the UK.

There's something wrong with the world.

For the past eighteen years, in the wake of the Twin Towers attack, the US and the UK have adopted the increasingly-intensifying attitude of fetishising the armed forces. The US particularly so - it's worrying just how many Americans consider servicepeople to be "super-citizens" who are better than any other ordinary citizen, who should be given more than anyone else, and who should be forgiven more than anyone else (completely dichotomous with the US government, who despite their rhetoric frequently abandon their former servicepeople to homelessness, depression, PTSD, drug addiction, etc.). Add to that the official entrenchment of this attitude with the playing of the national anthem at numerous events, requiring people to stand for it and the flag, the wheeling-out of veterans to display patriotism, and the consequent shaming of anyone who disagrees in barely crypto-fascistic fashion as David pointed out, and it all makes for a very nasty, iniquitous atmosphere where forces personnel can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it, because apparently they're fighting for our freedom, don't you know?

There's something a little similar here, like when The S*n did "The Millies" (the military awards for short), and like how failure to don a plastic-and-card poppy the same time every year is greeted with a reaction usually reserved for paedophiles and wrestling fans.

15 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

Do we have our own problems in the UK to that extent? I know a lot of women and none of them have ever been sexually assaulted or even harassed as seems to be the message online.

It's more likely that none of them have chosen to tell you that anything happened to them - not because of you necessarily, but because it's incredibly difficult for survivors to tell anyone about that sort of thing.

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11 minutes ago, David said:

As I highlighted in my post earlier, the lack of coverage of the Abu Ghraib situation until there was simply no other option shows how reluctant the media in the US is to go down that route.

"The media" isn't a monolith though, and despite the reluctance from someĀ quarters and suppression by the establishment the story was covered in the US media. What's more is thatĀ slanted coverage making excuses and taking the "our brave boys" position was not the editorial line of every single outlet covering the story. For all its faults the free press remains free and did its job here.

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Maybe. I'm not so sure that a US female civilian being raped at a US military base can really be considered "wrestling."ļ»æ

This isn't a musclebound performer in spandex dying of a heart attack at 40, or innuendo about how female wrestlers are treated behind closed locker room doors,Ā although it being wrestling isĀ a good excuse for media who more than likely have no real hunger to pick up the story.

You only have to look at the disparity between coverage of missing girls from different races, or allegations of abuse of people from lower social classes to know that people often takeĀ a different line on what is deemedĀ "worthy" or otherwise of massive outrage or follow up.

WhatĀ is interesting and up for debate is whether this reflects public opinion or manipulates the public's opinion, or whether its both.

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2 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

"The media" isn't a monolith though, and despite the reluctance from someĀ quarters and suppression by the establishment the story was covered in the US media.

The Abu Ghraib situation was first covered by the Associated Press on November 1st 2003. It was a good five months before any real US mainstream source covered the story properly. A five month period that saw the story revealed by the AP, the US Military acknowledge said story before announcing the suspension and charging of soldiers.

The 60 Minutes TV feature that helped blast open the doors on the media coverage was actually going to be delayed at the behest of the Department of defence, a decision that was only overturned when it became clear that The New Yorker magazine was planning to run the story as well, and CBS didn't want to be outdone.

Like I said, the toothpaste was out of the tube by that point.

9 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What's more is thatĀ slanted coverage making excuses and taking the "our brave boys" position was not the editorial line of every single outlet covering the story.

Many conservative media outlets ran with the "brave boys who are under stress" line though, didn't they? As for the media outlets who eventually covered the story properly, they did so when they had no real option. They showed zero hunger to look into the situation in late 2003, or in early 2004 when the US military had openly acknowledged the situation.Ā 

It had reached a point where they simply had to cover it at some point.

12 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

For all its faults the free press remains free and did its job here.

If you consider sitting on a story for almost six months as doing your job, then fair play. I personally think you're being incredibly naive if you believe the free press is truly free, especially in matters such as this.

13 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

You only have to look at the disparity between coverage of missing girls from different races, or allegations of abuse of people from lower social classes to know that people often takeĀ a different line on what is deemedĀ "worthy" or otherwise of massive outrage. WhatĀ is interesting and up for debate is whether this reflects public opinion or manipulates the public's opinion, or whether its both.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that "former Playboy cover girl claims she was raped in a US military base then commits suicide" wouldn't be a hell of a headline? Of course it would. The world today revolves around scandal, sex, and celebrity, and this story has all of those factors.

I know what people mean when they say that stories about WWE are dismissed as "wrestling," but this is someone who had appeared inĀ Playboy, FHM, Stuff, hosted shows on E!, been on Smallville, and featured in a Timbaland music video.

This isn't Miss Elizabeth dying in Lex Lugers sitting room from an OD.

This story would draw public interest, but there's a reason why it likely won't see much coverage, it's not because she spent a few years in WWE.Ā 

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I cancelled my subscription the moment I read the legal papers, and actually hated myself for only doing it then.

I was speaking to my brother-in-law the other week about how/why we're both still fans. We concluded that we remember our childhoods too fondly, when everything was still real and nobody had the first thought to question what went on behind the curtain.

There's been too much happen during my adult years for me to be able to support the company, and again, I'm actually disgusted with myself that I've supported them for so long.

So I've cancelled the network and removed all links/bookmarks to WWE. Today marks the first day after a PPV since I was a child when I haven't actively tried to find out the results.

And then I ask "what about other wrestling, if I'm not going to follow WWE anymore?"Ā I think I've also realised that being entertained by people intentionally hurting themselves is a bit daft, and the older I get, the more anxious I feel watching wrestling as I become ever-more sure that someone's going to badly hurt themselves.

I'm glad this is getting some mainstream media attention, I just genuinely hope that something actually happens this time.

2019 - the year I gave up on 30 years of being a WWE/wrestling fan.

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2 hours ago, Michael_3165 said:

Do we have our own problems in the UK to that extent? I know a lot of women and none of them have ever been sexually assaulted or even harassed as seems to be the message online. If anything I think the likelihood is decreasing with the #MeToo and all that. Maybe I am really sheltered but I do work in public services and see a huge number and variety of people.

Yeah, you are really sheltered and that's putting it extremely mildly.Ā 

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2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

For the past eighteen years, in the wake of the Twin Towers attack, the US and the UK have adopted the increasingly-intensifying attitude of fetishising the armed forces. The US particularly so - it's worrying just how many Americans consider servicepeople to be "super-citizens" who are better than any other ordinary citizen, who should be given more than anyone else, and who should be forgiven more than anyone else (completely dichotomous with the US government, who despite their rhetoric frequently abandon their former servicepeople to homelessness, depression, PTSD, drug addiction, etc.). Add to that the official entrenchment of this attitude with the playing of the national anthem at numerous events, requiring people to stand for it and the flag, the wheeling-out of veterans to display patriotism, and the consequent shaming of anyone who disagrees in barely crypto-fascistic fashion as David pointed out, and it all makes for a very nasty, iniquitous atmosphere where forces personnel can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it, because apparently they're fighting for our freedom, don't you know?

Couldn't agree more.

My Dad was in the Welsh Guards for several years, thankfully finishing his service just before the Falklands War. But as he's told us on many occasions, joining the army was something he and his mates felt they were compelled to do as they had no qualifications and there were no real jobs around. It doesn't make them better people or even braver than your normal folk.

I'm not very comfortable with the "Help our Heroes" rhetoric that has been more prevalent over the past 15 years or so, but this is nothing compared to that in the USA. I find it all quite nauseating in all honesty, and the WWE have been as guilty as anyone for glamorising "our fighting men and women" for years now.

There's no conscription any more, no one is forced to join the military. They do so as they've chosen it as a career choice.

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