World Cup 2022

[Carbomb]

48 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

England historically don’t win because of post empire declinism, a hereditary fear of masturbation, and a Victorian sense of a divine right to rule. 

I've really got to get round to reading that book at some point.

[Jonny Vegas]

England have an opportunity here to recognise something needs changed or they can do the most english thing possible and bury their heads in the sand and pretend everything is great.

I don't know that a manager who has won things is neccessary just someone who's identified as a top coach with a track record of improving players and achieving above their expectations. Eddie Howe would be the first name that I'd put forward.

For progression right now it's pointless looking or anslysing anything prior to Southgate's reign. When you break it down and look at the sides England have beaten at the major tournaments, there's a strong argument that Germany are the only side who they weren't strong favourites and expected to beat. Even then it wasn't a Germany side of old, it was a transitional team who were a shadow of their former selves and limped out of the WC groups a year later.

WC 2018 - Tunisia, Panama, Colombia (pens), Sweden.

Lost to Belgium twice and Croatia.

Euro 2020(1) - Croatia, Czech Rep, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark.

Lost to an Italy side who couldn't qualify for the World Cup a year later.

WC 2022 - Iran, Wales, Senegal.

Lost to France.

England have the most promising crop of youth talent on their hands arguably for the last 20 years and they need a manager who is going to appreciate, nurture and utilise that. Southgate was a mediocre manager at Middlebrough and achieved no more or less than was expected. He's done the exact same with England.

The stages he reached in tournaments is irrelevant, if the "luck of the draw" meant England playing the better sides earlier, they would have went out earlier. The reality of the matter is that he's repeatedly shown an inability to manouevre England past sides they weren't expected to have beaten.

Southgate is also in my opinion too reliant on people who have done him a good turn rather than people currently in form. 

He insisted on Stones & Maguire who struggle to get into their club sides and have less appearances this season between them than Fikayo Tomori has for an AC Milan side who won Serie A last season with him receiving rave reviews, sit 2nd in Serie A currently only behind a fantastic Napoli side and recently qualified from their Champions League group. He wasn't even in the 23.

For me starting Pickford who's not done well at Everton for about 3 years and has been fighting relegation for the last 2, ahead of Ramsdale who's been earning plaudits at a rejuvinated Arsenal side who are top of the league was also a silly decision.

If your national side is made up of players who are used to being in club sides who are winning matches every week it helps carry those winning mentalities into matches.

Bellingham, Foden & Saka are all elite players already. In another 2 to 4 years if they can stay fit and keep progressing imagine how good they could be.

Rice, Tomori, Reece James, Trent AA, Conor Gallacher, Harvey Elliott, Emile Smith Rowe are all under 24 and who knows who else might develop or emerge in the next few years.

Another key action would be to keep Mason Mount as far away from the starting squad as possible. He is fucking garbage.

[garynysmon]

I would agree that club and international management is a very different beast, with the gap probably widening.

The likes of Bora Milutinovic made a career of leading international teams into World Cups.

Chris Coleman has  a poor track record at club level but yet took Wales to the semi finals of a Euros based on nothing more than a rigid formation, having two superstar players at their peak and excellent motivational/man management skills.

Rob Page’s stock has dropped significantly after a woeful World Cup (the inquest is still ongoing in Wales), but he still got us past the groups at Euro 2020 and qualified for the WC via the notoriously difficult European route.

He’d been sacked by Port Vale and Northampton at League One/Two level.

Michael O’Neill was extremely successful with Northern Ireland (relatively speaking), yet failed to do anything with a well funded Stoke City despite being given a lot of time.

With international management you’re basically stuck with what you have, unless you manage to persuade a dual nationality player to throw his lot in with you then you have to work with what’s available.

It works for some and not for others. Somehow I can’t see the likes of Mourinho and Pep succeeding given such constraints.

For the record I think that Southgate has done a decent job for England. The setup is significantly less loathsome and you never hear of bored or dysfunctional England camps like days of yore.

Tiny margins are the difference between getting to the 2018 World Cup final and winning Euro 2020, I’d trust the process if I were you.

Edited December 12, 2022 by garynysmon

[PunkStep]

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

and achieved no more or less than was expected. He's done the exact same with England

England were not expected to reach the semi finals in 2018 nor the final in 2021. They were however expected to reach the quarters this year and everyone predicted we would go out to France (the reigning world champions, one of the pre tournament favourites and let's be honest a side everyone expected to beat us).  

 

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

The stages he reached in tournaments is irrelevant, if the "luck of the draw" meant England playing the better sides earlier, they would have went out earlier

No it's not irrelevant, it's a very clear indicator of how you perform at a tournament. You can say 'England should beat Senegal etc', but you can say that about a lot of results and guess what - this is tournament football - it doesn't always go that way. Cameroon beat Brazil, South Korea beat Portugal, Morocco beat Portugal, Belgium and Spain, Tunisia beat France (albeit a much weaker side), Japan beat Spain and Germany, Saudi Arabia beat Argentina. There is no divine right for England to beat everyone, and that's the kind of mentality some of our fans need to lose.

 

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

Southgate is also in my opinion too reliant on people who have done him a good turn rather than people currently in form. 

He insisted on Stones & Maguire who struggle to get into their club sides and have less appearances this season between them than Fikayo Tomori has for an AC Milan side who won Serie A last season with him receiving rave reviews, sit 2nd in Serie A currently only behind a fantastic Napoli side and recently qualified from their Champions League group. He wasn't even in the 23.

For me starting Pickford who's not done well at Everton for about 3 years and has been fighting relegation for the last 2, ahead of Ramsdale who's been earning plaudits at a rejuvinated Arsenal side who are top of the league was also a silly decision.

Prior to this tournament I would agree on one of the above points (Maguire), but hasn't Southgate once again just proved everybody wrong in this regard? Maguire has been brilliant and I fail to see how we would have been better if somebody else were in his place. Therefore Tomori would have been an unused squad player. I would have picked him over Coady, but then again we're really going down to very small decisions that had no overall bearing of the team's performance here. Maguire and Stones were trusted once again as part of a defence and GK that know each other very well at international level (Walker, Trippier, Shaw, Pickford) and they delivered.

As an Arsenal fan, I'd have loved to see Ramsdale but Pickford has always been good for England and was the best choice here. Also, he's the single biggest reason (ahead of Richarlison) why Everton weren't relegated last season, he's been their best player for more than a year now. It was a no-brainer for me.

 

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

England have the most promising crop of youth talent on their hands arguably for the last 20 years and they need a manager who is going to appreciate, nurture and utilise that.

How has he not done that? He has just played a 19yo for 5 consecutive matches at the World Cup. He has integrated so many young players into the squad and managed them very well, especially during difficult times. Just ask Saka. He gave Sancho plenty of caps before his form dipped and other young players moved ahead of him. At the Euros, England had the youngest squad and during this World Cup I believe England had the 7th youngest squad, or something like that.

 

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

Eddie Howe would be the first name that I'd put forward.

Yes but that's not realistic though, is it? Howe is doing wonders with a team that are on the verge of breaking the 'big six' stronghold and is pushing for Champions League football. He is being paid very handsomely by a state-funded club. He isn't going to take the England job, no chance. Given what Southgate has built here with the squad he has and the relationships he clearly has with them, I don't know who England could REALISTICALLY (people really need to take note of this word) replace him with that would definitely achieve more. A team that were a penalty shootout away from Euros glory and a couple of decisions (in a game against the World Champions where they were the better team) away from a World Cup semi final VS Morocco.

Perhaps there is a better option out there, but there isn't a glaringly obvious option that I can see that can guarantee improvement. And you take the relationship Southgate has with his players on a whim for the sake of just having a change, and to me you risk England going completely backwards.

 

edit: @garynysmon spot on in your post. Love the mention of Bora, the absolute lunatic!

Edited December 12, 2022 by PunkStep

[SuperBacon]

6 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

As an Arsenal fan, I'd have loved to see Ramsdale but Pickford has always been good for England and was the best choice here. Also, he's the single biggest reason (ahead of Richarlison) why Everton weren't relegated last season, he's been their best player for more than a year now. It was a no-brainer for me.

I'll be honest, I've been really impressed with Pickford this tournament. 

I know I turned my nose up at him perhaps replacing Lloris at Spurs, but the thought doesn't make me unhappy. I think he's been great, so happy to hold my hands up that I was wrong.

Liked how he told the cameras to go away when Kane was filmed straight after the final whistle. That's a nice thing to try and do for his captain.

[air_raid]

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

When you break it down and look at the sides England have beaten at the major tournaments, there's a strong argument that Germany are the only side who they weren't strong favourites and expected to beat. Even then it wasn't a Germany side of old, it was a transitional team who were a shadow of their former selves and limped out of the WC groups a year later.

WC 2018 - Tunisia, Panama, Colombia (pens), Sweden.

Lost to Belgium twice and Croatia.

Euro 2020(1) - Croatia, Czech Rep, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark.

Lost to an Italy side who couldn't qualify for the World Cup a year later.

WC 2022 - Iran, Wales, Senegal.

Lost to France.

OK, if you want context to matter, which this sentence seems to suggest, then the Belgium games should be disregarded as a dead rubber where most the team was rested, and third place play off where at least half of them were rested. And the Italy final was a draw after 2 hours, only decided on pens, which is a loss in technical terms only, neither team truly beat the other inside 120 minutes of football.

2 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

For me starting Pickford who's not done well at Everton for about 3 years and has been fighting relegation for the last 2, ahead of Ramsdale who's been earning plaudits at a rejuvinated Arsenal side who are top of the league was also a silly decision.

Pickford who's not put a foot wrong in the last two tournaments for him. Including not conceding a goal in five consecutive games in the Euros until a direct free kick went in against Denmark.

3 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

He insisted on Stones & Maguire who struggle to get into their club sides and have less appearances this season between them than Fikayo Tomori has for an AC Milan side who won Serie A last season with him receiving rave reviews, sit 2nd in Serie A currently only behind a fantastic Napoli side and recently qualified from their Champions League group. He wasn't even in the 23.

Stones & Maguire who together, for England, have been the bedrock of his defence for two relatively successful tournaments. Including a majority of the minutes in the Euros without conceding a goal until a direct free kick went in against Denmark.

Sorry, but picking the back 5 apart is an odd choice. He sticks with what works for him.

[Gus Mears]

13 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

 I don't know who England could REALISTICALLY (people really need to take note of this word) replace him with that would definitely achieve more.

Bring him back. He's done his time. Significantly better winning percentage than Southgate too.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gus Mears

[Keith Houchen]

Yeah, getting rid of The Count Of Monte Bisto was a mistake. Take me down to the Allardyce City where the grass is green and the footballs pretty. He’d not have any of this woke nonsense like armbands and taking knees. Proper football. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Keith Houchen

[Gus Mears]

7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Yeah, getting rid of The Count Of Monte Bisto was a mistake. Take me down to the Allardyce City where the grass is green and the footballs pretty. He’d not have any of this woke nonsense like armbands and taking knees. Proper football. 

Perfect time post-Qatar. Far too much temptation to put your hand in the till over there.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Gus Mears

[gmoney]

Sam wouldn't have done well over there, difficult to get your hands on a few pints of Pinot Grigio.

[Jazzy G]

His England management record speaks for itself. One of only 15 international managers with a 100% winning record. https://sports.bwin.com/en/news/infographics/sam-allardyce-other-unbeaten-international-managers/

[JNLister]

Interesting thread here on Kane taking the penalties: 

 

[Jonny Vegas]

8 hours ago, PunkStep said:

1. England were not expected to reach the semi finals in 2018 nor the final in 2021. They were however expected to reach the quarters this year and everyone predicted we would go out to France (the reigning world champions, one of the pre tournament favourites and let's be honest a side everyone expected to beat us).  

2. No it's not irrelevant, it's a very clear indicator of how you perform at a tournament. You can say 'England should beat Senegal etc', but you can say that about a lot of results and guess what - this is tournament football - it doesn't always go that way. Cameroon beat Brazil, South Korea beat Portugal, Morocco beat Portugal, Belgium and Spain, Tunisia beat France (albeit a much weaker side), Japan beat Spain and Germany, Saudi Arabia beat Argentina. There is no divine right for England to beat everyone.

3. He has just played a 19yo for 5 consecutive matches at the World Cup.

4. I don't know who England could REALISTICALLY (people really need to take note of this word) replace him with that would definitely achieve more.

 

@garynysmon 

Apologies in advance as I'm not sure how to part quote like you did but I've amended it down to the main points I'm in disagreement with and numbered them.

1. It depends hugely on perspective of whether benchmarks of reaching stages or what you do to get there are equally important or whether you believe some are more or less. 

Were England expected to beat the teams they did in the last 3 tournaments? I would say other than Germany, yes absolutely. Therefore regardless of what stage of a tournament it then allowed them to reach, it was expected.

France were there for the taking and they didn't, I live in Glasgow and next to nobody expected France to win. The relief up here when they did was huge.

2. In my opinion the results of other teams is irrelevant. Upsets are always going to happen across football. Other nations not beating sides they're expected to doesn't mean England should be praised for doing so.

3. No manager could leave Bellingham out. He was a stand out and is a leader already at 19. Again I just do not believe it warrants any praise for Southgate. The lad is an absolute prodigy. He's played 2 and a half season's at a top club in Dortmund where he is now captain and already had 17 England caps. He hasn't unearthed some hidden gem.

4. Nobody can definitely achieve more than any manager. That's football, it's a constant evolving gamble.

If we're saying lets not replace him with Eddie Howe cause Eddie Howe doesnt want the job its an entirely different argument to lets not do it because I think he's already doing a brilliant job.

I think Southgate has achieved nothing more than what he should have with the players, resources and opportunities he has had available to him.

If England are happy coasting and being nearly men indefinitely by all means they shouldn't make any changes. If they want to try and find someone capable of leading the team past games they're not expected to win, then take a gamble.

[PunkStep]

29 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

Were England expected to beat the teams they did in the last 3 tournaments? I would say other than Germany, yes absolutely.

Including the World Cup runners up Croatia, when England beat them in the Euros last summer? The same Croatia that are one more win from a consecutive World Cup final. I don't think England should have been expected to beat them at all, especially as they lost to them at the previous major tournament. But they did. So that's two teams across three tournaments they beat when they were not expected to. That's not bad going. It's not Morocco levels of achievements, but it's a damn sight better than tournaments dating back to the Bobby Robson days at least (at the very least, I think England have been better than they were in 86-90).

Not sure why Scottish hold England in such high regard to win everything. It's quite flattering, but they're clearly not as good as you seem to think they are. And haven't been for decades.

 

32 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

No manager could leave Bellingham out. He was a stand out and is a leader already at 19. Again I just do not believe it warrants any praise for Southgate. The lad is an absolute prodigy. He's played 2 and a half season's at a top club in Dortmund where he is now captain and already had 17 England caps. He hasn't unearthed some hidden gem.

So you say England need somebody that can appreciate, nurture and utilise the young talent at their disposal. I give you examples and your response is 'he couldn't leave him out'. Well he could, but he didn't, same with the many other young players he's played during his tenure. Nobody is saying he has unearthed a gem- he has simply appreciated, nurtured and utilised young talent. The very things you believe the England manager needs to do. So, looks like we agree on that- Southgate ticks the box. Good stuff. 

42 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

If they want to try and find someone capable of leading the team past games they're not expected to win, then take a gamble.

Such as?

[SuperBacon]

19 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

Such as?