Keith Houchen Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 I get where @LaGoosh is coming from. If you break it down very simplistically to a 1-10 scale, with 1 being far left and 10 being far right, the centrist position is 4-6. But in the current UK climate, Labour are (in my opinion only of course) 5-6 and Tory are 7-8. So the middle of those two is 6-7 and that is more right than it is centre. And if the main political parties were in a window of 1-5, the middle is 3 and that’s not a centrist position.  @Lokiis the embodiment of my point I guess, he was traditionally LibDem but now he’s Labour. His ideals haven’t changed, the parties have.  Ultimately, my dislike of centrism is it never sided with actual change. It’s always “Through gritted teeth” or “With regret” they voted Tory. Centrism is conservativism in the sense they want to conserve the political status quo. However saying that, LibDem were the ones championing PR so fair play to them for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted March 6, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted March 6, 2023 yeah - particularly when it comes to Labour, the expectation under a "centrist" or right-wing Labour leader is that the Left should keep their heads down and vote for the good of the Party, but under a left-wing leader that sense of duty and fealty to the party completely disappears. It's difficult to get behind a centrism that considers you and people like you as beyond the limits of that centre, but right-wing conservative approaches to immigration and policing as well within it. It's a broad church, but not broad enough to find space for the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 16 minutes ago, Carbomb said: There would most likely be a lot less hostility or opposition from the left towards centrists or the notion of centrism if said centrists hadn't spent the past few years essentially making out that they consider the left to be a greater threat to this country than the Tories. Prior to that, there might have been some consideration that the centre and the left could be allies and find a compromise. Thing is, we've now gone from saying that centrists and the middle ground is nothing but a fallacy, and isn't a definable political position to claiming that centrists have spent the last few years portraying the left as a greater threat to the country than the right? So, my question is, which is it? Not a definable political position, or a coherent recognisable group that has acted in unison to push the agenda of the right to the detriment of the left? 11 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: I get where @LaGoosh is coming from. If you break it down very simplistically to a 1-10 scale, with 1 being far left and 10 being far right, the centrist position is 4-6. But in the current UK climate, Labour are (in my opinion only of course) 5-6 and Tory are 7-8. So the middle of those two is 6-7 and that is more right than it is centre. And if the main political parties were in a window of 1-5, the middle is 3 and that’s not a centrist position.  @Lokiis the embodiment of my point I guess, he was traditionally LibDem but now he’s Labour. His ideals haven’t changed, the parties have.  Ultimately, my dislike of centrism is it never sided with actual change. It’s always “Through gritted teeth” or “With regret” they voted Tory. Centrism is conservativism in the sense they want to conserve the political status quo. However saying that, LibDem were the ones championing PR so fair play to them for that. I think it all depends where you are on the political spectrum, doesn't it? If you're a dyed-in-the-wool socialist then anything short of Corbyn's vision of Labour is going to seem further to the right. However, if you're a hardline Tory you would have seen the likes of Cameron as further to the left than you'd like the Tory party to be, while those who vote Labour would still have seen him further to the right. It's all about perception I guess. 9 minutes ago, BomberPat said: yeah - particularly when it comes to Labour, the expectation under a "centrist" or right-wing Labour leader is that the Left should keep their heads down and vote for the good of the Party, but under a left-wing leader that sense of duty and fealty to the party completely disappears. It's difficult to get behind a centrism that considers you and people like you as beyond the limits of that centre, but right-wing conservative approaches to immigration and policing as well within it. It's a broad church, but not broad enough to find space for the left. Here's the thing. No one is forcing anyone to vote for Labour. If those on the left of the party don't like what Starmer has to say, or find it difficult to get behind him then there's other options out there. There's no rule that says anyone or any organisation has to be permanently wed to one particular party. As @Keith Houchenpointed out, @Lokihas expressed support for both Liberal Democrat and Labour in recent times. Myself, I've moved between SNP and Labour over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 And to the point of radical change, as @Keith Houchensays it was the "centrist" Lib Dems who campaigned, and still campaign, for Proportional Representation, whereas it's never been part of the left-wing of Labour's main goals. Â Well, Blair paid lip service but dropped it as soon as he had a stonking majority. Which suggests that radical political change isn't just the domain of either ideological wing. I spent much of my teenage years and twenties banging the drum for electoral reform, going door to door, leafletting, and did so (through gritted teeth) in the referendum on AV. Â And I continue to believe that ultimately we need to move to a proportional representation system. Â If I passionately believe in anything politically ideologically, it's that. However... my current feeling is that there are bigger fish to fry and that I'd rather Labour didn't try and win a GE on a manifesto of PR. Â Win an election, sort some vital shit out, and then go after PR. 27 minutes ago, BomberPat said: particularly when it comes to Labour, the expectation under a "centrist" or right-wing Labour leader is that the Left should keep their heads down and vote for the good of the Party, but under a left-wing leader that sense of duty and fealty to the party completely disappears. I can see this. Â There was certainly a lot of moaning and resignations from Corbyn's shadow cabinet. Â But in the end they all went out and campaigned for Labour, and voted for Labour didn't they? Â Apart from the CUKers of course. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 minute ago, David said: I think it all depends where you are on the political spectrum, doesn't it? If you're a dyed-in-the-wool socialist then anything short of Corbyn's vision of Labour is going to seem further to the right. However, if you're a hardline Tory you would have seen the likes of Cameron as further to the left than you'd like the Tory party to be, while those who vote Labour would still have seen him further to the right. It's all about perception I guess. Not necessarily. I’ve banged on for ages (unlike me) about how annoying it is when someone on the right calls someone who disagrees with them a “Lefty” or a “Snowflake”. And more often than not it comes back to Brexit. These are the people who call David Cameron and Theresa May lefties because they voted remain. Although they never reserve that tag for arch remainer Jeremy Clarkson. Even the walking human infected foreskin Piers Morgan said most of the abuse he received was when he slated the Johnson government over their handling of Brexit. Getting called remoaner scum and how they thought he was on their side and how he should support them no matter what.  There is a big big difference in being to the left of you and being a lefty, just like the same for someone being to the right of you and being right wing. Corbyn is to the right of me but I’d never consider him to be right wing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted March 6, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, David said: Thing is, we've now gone from saying that centrists and the middle ground is nothing but a fallacy, and isn't a definable political position to claiming that centrists have spent the last few years portraying the left as a greater threat to the country than the right? I haven't done that. I've given my position, which is the one I've stated. As a socialist, I've spent the last few years being told by right-wingers and centrists alike that I'm "extreme left", and I've seen actual purported centrists or moderates in the actual Labour Party deliberately undermine the first chance socialist politics had in forty years of getting anywhere near government, which tells me, in pragmatic, material terms, that they consider the worst Tory government ever preferable to that. EDIT: To follow up on your bit to BomberPat - yes, you're right: nobody should have to vote for the Labour Party. And that's the point: the complaint is that, whenever we express a view that we don't want to vote for a so-called moderate candidate in Starmer because he hasn't earned our vote, which, as you say, is our right, we get centrists/moderates telling us that we need to show solidarity and get the Tories out, and that the Tories will cause more deaths and suffering if we don't. We're being emotionally blackmailed to be held hostage over something that our blackmailers didn't have the fucking decency to do themselves. Edited March 6, 2023 by Carbomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 24 minutes ago, Loki said: I can see this.  There was certainly a lot of moaning and resignations from Corbyn's shadow cabinet.  But in the end they all went out and campaigned for Labour, and voted for Labour didn't they?  Apart from the CUKers of course.  The wreckers diverted funds away from campaigning in marginal seats in 2017, in just one instance of the relentless way Corbyn was ratfucked by people in his own party. Not to mention the likes of Ian Austin and John Mann, who were such “broad church” Labourites that they received life peerages… from the tories, for being such good sports in Corb hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Carbomb said: EDIT: To follow up on your bit to BomberPat - yes, you're right: nobody should have to vote for the Labour Party. And that's the point: the complaint is that, whenever we express a view that we don't want to vote for a so-called moderate candidate in Starmer because he hasn't earned our vote, which, as you say, is our right, we get centrists/moderates telling us that we need to show solidarity and get the Tories out, and that the Tories will cause more deaths and suffering if we don't. We're being emotionally blackmailed to be held hostage over something that our blackmailers didn't have the fucking decency to do themselves. Yeah that arrogance annoys me too. I know local elections aren’t the same as general elections but there was a council bye election in Tamworth the other day, the results were CON: 34.3% (-12.0) LAB: 32.2% (+0.5) IND: 25.8% (+25.8) REF: 4.1% (+4.1) GRN: 3.6% (+3.6) Votes cast: 974 Conservative HOLD. And of course, tories won because it was the fault of the greens and the independent for splitting the vote. Nothing to do with Labour failing to engage with the majority who didn’t vote, or with a third of those who did. Nope, the greens should’ve stepped aside and the independent was only after his 15 minutes of fame.  I also love the way that whenever there is talk of the left of Labour fucking off and starting their own party, the sensible grownups are all for it. Except at election times when they’d be splitting the vote and become Tory enablers. You can’t have it both ways. You want my vote? Earn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Coconut Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) Don't we have a general politics thread for this sort of shit? I come in here to read about cunts. Seems David had the same thought 3 hours ago... Edited March 6, 2023 by King Coconut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted March 6, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 hours ago, Keith Houchen said: @Lokiis the embodiment of my point I guess, he was traditionally LibDem but now he’s Labour. His ideals haven’t changed, the parties have He was traditionally a Whig, surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted March 7, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted March 7, 2023 I see that the Tories are out appealing to their base this morning with everyone's favourite incompetent cunt Cruella Braverman promising to "Push the boundaries of international law" in the latest plan to tackle immigration. I haven't seen the full details but it would be a massive surprise if her plan isn't to offer Tory donors the opportunity to buy places on HMS Thundercunt for a million pounds per time so that they can motor up and down the English Channel with a long sharp pole and pop the boats of people trying to cross. As this happens Cruella takes selfies as the people drown and then WhatsApps them to Jacob Rees-Mogg's secret group where him and like minded friends join together to get their nannies to wank them off as they look at the pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, King Coconut said: Don't we have a general politics thread for this sort of shit? I come in here to read about cunts. Try not to sound so happy about it Sue  Edited March 7, 2023 by WyattSheepMask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Nexus Posted March 7, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted March 7, 2023 UNHRC have already come out against it.  They're just disgusting fascists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, Nexus said: UNHRC have already come out against it.  They're just disgusting fascists Bit harsh, they just want the tories to tone it down a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Fucking hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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