Vice: Dark Side of the Ring

[CavemanLynn]

I think Hunter has often let himself down by fundamentally misunderstanding what made his hero, Ric Flair, so great.

When Flair pointed out his face opponent's shortcomings, it was Flair's high-class capitalist playboy persona dressing down the plucky hometown hero, up-and-comer, or working man. And when they did finally face off, Flair knew it was time to show arse and have all his claims about his opponents proven wrong or overcome. When Triple H hit the main event scene, his blue blood days were well behind him, with his Game persona essentially just being the best wrestler. Combine that with the WW(F)E match formula, you've got a heel wrestler telling a face he's not as good as him, then outwrestling him for half an hour before whatever the finish is.

I blame his admittedly-stellar performance in his Iron Man match with the Rock for convincing Trips he'd made it to Flair level, doing the brunt of the leading for a full hour, totally ignoring the incredible charisma and talent of his opponent. There's an argument to be had for whether Triple H ever really drew, because of who he was facing at any given time, but that comes down to how you compare fans wanting a face to win versus wanting a heel to use, which is pretty much impossible to measure.

Yet, he's still so clearly great. As much as he took grief for the curtain call, I've no doubt he could've cleared off with his mates and ended up earning millions in whatever form the NWO then took, but he stayed, took his lumps, did his own thing, and worked his way up. He had a blinding run for a year or two from 99 onwards, gave us that incredible Batista angle (which would never have been as good if Big Dave hadn't been great), was pretty consistent up until his semi-retirement, and still knows when to turn it on, e.g. vs Ronda. If the stories about his handling of and directing of NXT are anything to go by, he clearly loves the business, and, due to the situation he's worked for, he clearly loves his wife.

To be honest, she's the one who comes off like more of a cunt in that relationship.

[The Gaffer]

To be honest, on the subject of WrestleMania 22, I found the way they handled that build fantastic. Even J.R's much maligned "This is new school versus old school, rock n' roll versus hip hop..." soundbytes. Triple H's "You can't wrestle" shite I always read as a fairly earnest attempt at getting people behind the underdog in Cena. Realistically by that point none if the fans who had settled in their respective camps would have changed allegiances, anyway, so I thought the approach they took gave a decent bit of heat and colour to the feud. Obviously I'm in the minority. You have to remember that if the 2003 Triple H tried that, it would have worked because he was the most uncool bastard ever by that point due to being bloated and useless. 

The penny had dropped in 2006, though, in terms of fans going for most people put against Cena and turning into the kind of fans we unfortunately need to discuss far too much nowadays. They rallied behind Jericho during one of his most nondescript periods at SummerSlam the year before. They rallied behind Angle when he had that mental few months going on about shagging Booker T's wife, thinking America actually deserved a bit of an arse kicking etc. 

I mean...Triple H addressing the elephant in the room with Cena's skill and fan response might have worked? Anyway he tapped clean to Cena's wrestling hold at WrestleMania. He put him over. Fuck that. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Gay as FOOK

[Lord-Mountevans]

42 minutes ago, CavemanLynn said:

To be honest, she's the one who comes off like more of a cunt in that relationship.

Can i just bring you up to date with the rules around here?

You now have to explain why Stephanie is a "cunt" with actual evidence/rumours/hearsay & gather the same from others. Then you wait while the opposition say you are wrong & have proved nothing. The same people do not have to give any evidence of your chosen victim being a non-cunt. It then gets a bit nasty, before everyone backs off a little because it really is not that important in today's climate. We then all regroup & go through the process again.

Good luck & can i say that i agree that Stephanie is a cunt, but not as bigger cunt as Trips or the murdery, rapey ones.

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Lord-Mountevans
grammar

[Joe Blog]

If you could just tell us all why he is such a cunt then this would all be sorted. I have not said he isn't a cunt I have merely pointed out that your hatred of him seems based on speculation, hear say and weird personal opinions. 

You have failed to give any specific examples other than her buried people which whilst not the most selfless  behaviour is hardly deserving of being labelled a cunt of epic proportions. Literally every reason you seem to have to hate him is based on hear say and stories. That is what I don't understand. 

 

[wordsfromlee]

Steph trumps Triple H in the cunt stakes purely for "philanthropy is the future of marketing"

 

[Liam O'Rourke]

There was a way to do that Cena Vs. HHH build that didn't involve HHH trying to score babyface brownie points as the top heel against the top babyface. And if anybody wants to know how much HHH really "put him over", watch the main event of Raw the next night and get back to me. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Liam O'Rourke

[Lord-Mountevans]

5 minutes ago, Joe Blog said:

If you could just tell us all why he is such a cunt then this would all be sorted.

I can give you a first account that you will still dismiss, here goes (i have previously posted this on here ages ago, somewhere?):

A guy i know went to a WWE UK event & on his return, bumped into me. After talking about the show, he hinted about Triple H being a cunt, so i pushed him into telling me why.

Triple H & Flair were sat in a public area, having a chat. My friend said that he patiently waited at a distance, when it was apparent the they were on the move, he approached Triple H for an autograph on his programme. Triple H proceeded to snap his pen & say "Sorry i can't because your pen is broke", Flair just laughed in his face.

[iPumaPants]

23 minutes ago, Lord-Mountevans said:

Can i just bring you up to date with the rules around here?

You now have to explain why Stephanie is a "cunt" with actual evidence/rumours/hearsay & gather the same from others.

 

As you know that's a rule, kindly stick to it. Bring forth the "Triple H is a cunt" evidence.

I've never met Triple H, so I can't comment on a personal opinion, but by and large, I think he's done far more for the business as a whole than he's taken from it, even in his current high powered position. His career nosedived after the curtain call, and he made his way back, all whilst under the extra scrutiny of being a wrestler dating Stephanie. It might be beneficial to him now, but anyone who thinks it was good for him to start boning the boss's daughter in the 90's is a bit silly.

He's been a bit selfish occasionally, but he's definitely not a cunt. Hogan? Cunt. Snuka? Cunt. Trips? Nah.
 

2 minutes ago, Lord-Mountevans said:

I can give you a first account that you will still dismiss, here goes (i have previously posted this on here ages ago, somewhere?):

A guy i know went to a WWE UK event & on his return, bumped into me. After talking about the show, he hinted about Triple H being a cunt, so i pushed him into telling me why.

Triple H & Flair were sat in a public area, having a chat. My friend said that he patiently waited at a distance, when it was apparent the they were on the move, he approached Triple H for an autograph on his programme. Triple H proceeded to snap his pen & say "Sorry i can't because your pen is broke", Flair just laughed in his face.

When did this happen? One, I doubt the validity of the story, but two, if he's a heel, and your mate is bugging him out in public, he's gonna be a heel. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by iPumaPants

[Joe Blog]

Ahhhh right, so you have a overwhelming hatred of him because he snapped your mates pen. It all makes sense now, thank you. 

That is not me just dismissing it by the way, I am just astounded that this story makes him the god level cunt you seem to view him as. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Joe Blog

[Lord-Mountevans]

3 minutes ago, Joe Blog said:

Ahhhh right, so you have a overwhelming hatred of him because he snapped your mates pen. It all makes sense now, thank you. 

Not that it matters, but if that happened to you or a friend, would you think that it was the act of a cunt?

[LaGoosh]

15 minutes ago, Liam O'Rourke said:

There was a way to do that Cena Vs. HHH build that didn't involve HHH trying to score babyface brownie points as the top heel against the top babyface. And if anybody wants to know how much HHH really "put him over", watch the main event of Raw the next night and get back to me. 

They often have the habit of having Triple H make someone look like shit for ages and then he puts them over at the end. But by burying them during the buildup the damage is already done. Especially as he usually moves straight on to something else prominent while the person who beat him is left to flounder.

[Joe Blog]

If he was heel and he did it to a fully grown adult then no I probably would not think he was a cunt. If it was to a kid then yes. 

[Cannibal Man]

Not a big HHH fan outside of 2000 and 2001 but you have to hand it to him for booking the culmination of the CM Punk 2011 run to be himsen against Nash in a ladder match

Edited April 1, 2020 by Cannibal Man

[The Gaffer]

32 minutes ago, Liam O'Rourke said:

There was a way to do that Cena Vs. HHH build that didn't involve HHH trying to score babyface brownie points as the top heel against the top babyface. And if anybody wants to know how much HHH really "put him over", watch the main event of Raw the next night and get back to me. 

Who remembers the main event of Raw the next night, though? When you put someone over like he did at WrestleMania, you're setting a guy up in such a way that every time he comes down the aisle whoever is commentating can say "He counts Triple H on his WrestleMania hit list". It creates a certain kind of long term perception, which is 90% of what wrestling is anyway. Cena's had about a million greatest hits playlists, and that clip of him tapping him out is on all of them. If you're a 14 year old mark in the playground, keeping stats with your mates, you're thinking John Cena tapped The Game out at WrestleMania. You're not thinking about who went on last at Vengeance a few months later like lunatics like us are. I'll take all of Triple H's sins but him not putting Cena over properly will forever be an odd one to me. 

Won't argue on him scoring babyface brownie points, though. Other than the reign of terror years, he's always been far too preoccupied with looking cool regardless of the role he was meant to play. 

 

[BomberPat]

if you compare Triple H to JBL in how they approached feuding with John Cena as the Top Guy Elect, it's night and day. 

They actually talk about it on the Ruthless Aggression documentary, but frame it as if Cena was the one at fault for being out of his depth and not "ready" for a "cool bad guy" like Triple H.

But JBL through that entire run treated Cena as an existential threat to his championship reign, and his entire way of life. He surrounded himself with back-up, and whenever he needed to, he showed arse and made it look like it was just a matter of time before Cena gave him what was coming to him. The moment Cena jumps to RAW, Triple H is burying him to win smark points, and burying JBL during the same programme. One of those guys knew how to work heel and put the babyface over, the other didn't.

I can only think of three, maybe four, times when Triple H was able to work that old school Flair NWA style heel that he apparently wants to emulate, in terms of just bumping his arse off, selling, and making his opponent look like a threat - Cactus Jack, Batista, Daniel Bryan, and Ronda Rousey. And even for Daniel Bryan it was only really within the match itself, there was still a lot of Triple H having to be the cool bad-ass outside of that - and only made worse when NXT came along and he tried to balance being the heel corporate boss with the babyface internet darling boss of NXT and occasional appearances of the wisecracking DX lad. All of that adds up to someone who comes across like they think they're above the material they've been given, and acting up to show it - much like Kevin Nash and Scott Hall consistently acting unafraid of Goldberg, or any babyface, in WCW, only Trips has never been half as cool as Big Sexy.

On top of that, it feels like ever since Shawn Michaels' "I'm Sorry, I Love You", every big Triple H match was built around him desperately reaching for a moment as "iconic" and significant as that - they became completely drenched in melodrama, and narratively significant gestures. The Undertaker matches were dreadful for it, but there was also his ladder match with Kevin Nash, where Nash gives him the "Too Sweet" gesture and he responds with a crotch chop, and it's blatantly constructed to be this emotional climax of the match, but nobody gave a shit because he just wasn't good enough to hit those notes.

Does all that make him a cunt? Not particularly, it just makes him a wrestler I don't enjoy watching.