RedRooster Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 37 minutes ago, Duke said: As much as I don't want to be the guy who breaks stuff down into individual points, you've said a few things there that I'd like to open up a bit, so forgive me if I do the pedantic lawyer thing. Not at all, it's a discussion forum, plus I always enjoy your posts. I'm sure I'm not alone here. 37 minutes ago, Duke said: I don't think they're great examples, when they were hot none of them were running 3 hours of first run programming a week, and both Bischoff and HHH lost a lot of their booking cred when their shows expanded in hours. Bischoff played favourites to a ridiculous extent with the nwo and got completely absorbed in it to the detriment of the rest of the product and was unable to build young stars, bar Goldberg. HHH booked some seriously boring 1 hour shows in his time, and benefitted massively from the fact that his roster got a proper refresh every couple of years. I can't speak to Heyman as I never watched ECW, but it's not as if that show was ever massively successful. My point is more that people have come from nowhere to achieve success - Bischoff had WCW in a position where they routinely beat WWE in the ratings. He eventually crashed quite spectacularly. Triple H helped NXT become very, very popular. I generally enjoyed the product he presented. I didn't watch ECW either, but while he wasn't successful financially, I think it's fair to say that his booking philosophy was very successful. He created an influential product which is still talked about today. 54 minutes ago, Duke said: I don't think any booker we know about would be inherently better. They might have different blind spots that annoy you personally less, but I don't think they'd be any better at helping AEW reach a bigger audience. They all have blindspots, it's just what blindspots annoy you more. I'm not convinced, in the current landscape, that anyone can help AEW reach a significant larger audience, if I'm completely honest. That said, I do think, in many ways, the product is becoming less accessible to new viewers, and I do think that's problematic. 56 minutes ago, Duke said: This is where we come apart I think, I don't think that's a fair assumption at all. I think that does a disservice to the job that the team at AEW are doing to make it sound like there's someone in easy reach who can do better. I'm not saying they're in easy reach - but Khan has the resources to cast a wide net to find that person, and I think there's value in doing so. 57 minutes ago, Duke said: Hang on, I don't think we know that for sure. We've been told that the wrestlers have a lot more freedom and input, but the only time we know for sure the wrestlers were entirely leading stories were the early days where the Bucks were losing to Private Party, Kenny was rubbish and stuff was all over the place. Things kicked into (full) gear at all levels when Khan took over. I'm sure the wrestlers have lots of input into their stories and maybe even come up with them themselves, but Khan definitely has some input. If the wrestlers involved are to be believed, we do - Jericho claims to be entirely responsible for his own stuff, and most of the main wrestlers have said the same thing. On the flipside, we've had wrestlers like Big Swole come out and say that if you're not a creative person, you're basically fucked as no support is given to you. This likely leads to diverse shows, which is a good thing, but it's also led to repetitive shows, where multiple versions of the same angle occur. There's surely scope to clean that up, and also provide support to those who need it. 1 hour ago, Duke said: This is pretty one-eyed to be fair. Khan's to blame when things go wrong, but his only credit on the good stuff is not getting in the way? That's not what I'm saying, although I can see why you might have thought that. He deserves credit for both, but I think the bad stuff is increasingly problematic to the point I believe some kind of change would be helpful. 1 hour ago, Duke said: Malachi Black definitely suffered from being in one feud for way too long, and that's definitely on TK. Miro got injured and then went off to do a TV show, but I for one and excited about his next crusade. I'm interested to hear about what your issue with FTR is though. Sure. They're one of the most over acts in the company, but have no real direction and there's no sense that they're being prioritised. They didn't appear on Double or Nothing, and it looks likely that they won't appear on the All Out card. They're being treated very inconsistently, despite clearly being one of the most over - and entertaining - acts AEW has. Putting the titles on Swerve in Their Glory was a bit of an odd move, and even at the time it seemed like a bad choice. I think Khan is failing to capitalise on FTR's momentum quite spectacularly. 1 hour ago, Duke said: Doesn't Kenny Omega book the women's division? I don't know, but if that is indeed the case, it's been bad to the point that intervention has been required for a long time. I don't think there's any real excuse for the way that division has been treated. 1 hour ago, Duke said: This I'm with you on. I think Khan does way too much, and the reason stuff slips is because he hasn't time for everything. He'd be better with a trusted (small) booking team that can focus on other acts or shows so that he can focus on the big picture, but that's because I think team is almost always better than a one-man-band. I don't think we're as far away in our viewpoints as you might think. I think he'd be better off focusing on the big picture too - but as part of that, I think he should be more hands off in booking both AEW and ROH. Clearly he can identify good and bad matches, and that's great. I think he fails a bit at pushing fresh acts, female acts and, sometimes, capitalising on momentum. Some of that may be the product of someone who is trying to do too much. I think it's great that he gives wrestlers as much creative control as he does, but I think he needs a good editor - someone who understands his vision for AEW, and can help him execute it; while also being honest enough with him to challenge his quirks and bad habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 That twitter thread for Takeshita has some lovely stuff. Fans posting their pictures with him and fan art and asking him to come back soon. I don’t think any of us are hankering for Forbidden Door 2 any time soon, but if he comes back one day having become king of Japan I am there for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 What’s the deal with Takeshita, then? Is he under contract to DDT? Was it simply not possible for Tony to offer him big money to stay? Surely, if he had the chance, he’d be pinning him down for five to ten years? He’s fucking ace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 I always assumed that he was under contract to DDT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gmoney Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 6 hours ago, LaGoosh said: The start of the Cody feud was great but then like all Cody feuds it quickly turned into absolute shit and once Cody inevitably got his win back Malakai Black was dead in the water. Fucking Cody, man. So easy to forget how bad he was by the end. I don't think you can blame Cody for how Black has floundered. It was only Cody putting him over as a star so strongly that made people think he might be a megastar. If he was worth a shit he'd have recovered perfectly well from the loss. Rhodes did all he could to put him over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gmoney Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, Supremo said: What’s the deal with Takeshita, then? Is he under contract to DDT? Was it simply not possible for Tony to offer him big money to stay? Surely, if he had the chance, he’d be pinning him down for five to ten years? He’s fucking ace. Isn't he just on excursion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 It's weird to say that Tony Khan isn't very good at pushing fresh acts in the middle of a page full of people mourning the departure of Takeshita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TildeGuy~! Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 Last time I heard he was on a one year excursion  it if it’s been cut short DDT must want him back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
69MeDon Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 27 minutes ago, Supremo said: What’s the deal with Takeshita, then? Is he under contract to DDT? Was it simply not possible for Tony to offer him big money to stay? Surely, if he had the chance, he’d be pinning him down for five to ten years? He’s fucking ace. I'm not really a Japanese wrestling guy but from what I've been reading, he's going back to DDT to do their big yearly show and also a show for his own 10th anniversary and will then likely return to the US to complete his excursion - hopefully including a match against Kenny by god Omega. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, BomberPat said: It's weird to say that Tony Khan isn't very good at pushing fresh acts in the middle of a page full of people mourning the departure of Takeshita. I'm not sure how much credit I'd give Tony here, Takeshita being so damn good would just force the hand of any booker to put him against top talent. But it's also not like he was booked in anything outside of just matches, there was no typical build or story there. He got himself over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinity Land Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 40 minutes ago, RedRooster said: Sure. They're one of the most over acts in the company, but have no real direction and there's no sense that they're being prioritised. They didn't appear on Double or Nothing, and it looks likely that they won't appear on the All Out card. They're being treated very inconsistently, despite clearly being one of the most over - and entertaining - acts AEW has. Putting the titles on Swerve in Their Glory was a bit of an odd move, and even at the time it seemed like a bad choice. I think Khan is failing to capitalise on FTR's momentum quite spectacularly. The featured tag matches on Double or Nothing were: The Hardys v. Bucks and the tag title match involving Jurassic Express v. Lee/Swerve v. Team Taz FTR were featured that weekend in the ROH tag title match that led to the IWGP champs interfering and the following Dynamite in the Punk trios match. Which was all building towards Forbidden Door. Having a PPV match would have been great but not sure where they fit in at the time. Multiple plates were being spun. Christian about to turn finally, salvaging Swerve and Keith Lee as a tag team, featuring Starks and Hobbs. The Hardys were going to win the AEW tag titles and the Bucks were going to be split off from the tag scene for the Trios titles. Go back to that time period it might well have been the plan to have Hardys v. FTR for all the gold at All Out. There has been a path set for FTR with Forbidden Door - ROH PPV - All Out. I do see them being involved in some way. Plans have changed since May for different reasons, but I definitely see them being on the card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 The Takeshita deal is like what they did with Liger, Muta, Chono etc. They go over for work abroad and go back, assuming his home promotion pay a fee or something. He's not going WWE it works a bit differently, Okada did one in TNA that was famously so bad it ended their trade deal or sullied it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 I think the fantasy booking threads on here show that there is a huge abundance of people who can book good to great wrestling shows. As pointed out though, it’s when a spanner gets thrown in the works that disrupts the plan is what separates a good booker from a fantasy booker.  We can all plan storylines for three months, a year, two years. All of us. But that doesn’t mean it’ll plan out the way we want it to. Someone you have booked doesn’t like the direction and phones in their matches and promos? You need to deal with it. Someone has a family emergency and will be on a leave of absence for a few weeks? You need to deal with it.  Bob Mould had the book for WCW for a while, the Husker Du bloke! Granted, he had Big Sexy as his right hand man but anyone can book a wrestling show. Doesn’t mean it’ll be any good but anyone can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Duke Posted August 13, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 13, 2022 2 hours ago, RedRooster said: My point is more that people have come from nowhere to achieve success - Bischoff had WCW in a position where they routinely beat WWE in the ratings. He eventually crashed quite spectacularly. Triple H helped NXT become very, very popular. I generally enjoyed the product he presented. I didn't watch ECW either, but while he wasn't successful financially, I think it's fair to say that his booking philosophy was very successful. He created an influential product which is still talked about today. I get that, but my point is none of them were creating three hours of first run TV every week, and I'm not sure they presented the level AEW does for the same consistent time too. WCW at its height was better, don't get me wrong, but it got bad quick and I'm not sure Triple H's NXT reached that level, and when they went head to head AEW crushed them. It's also worth saying Hunter had a much bigger support staff than TK seems to, writing wise. Quote That said, I do think, in many ways, the product is becoming less accessible to new viewers, and I do think that's problematic Definitely agree. Quote If the wrestlers involved are to be believed, we do - Jericho claims to be entirely responsible for his own stuff, and most of the main wrestlers have said the same thing. I'm fairly confident we've heard either Kenny or the Bucks (or maybe both) say that they generate ideas, but he's the booker and gets final say so. I can't source that (I think ti was a Meltzer interview). Recognizing a good idea and letting talent run with it is part of being a good booker Quote Sure. They're one of the most over acts in the company, but have no real direction and there's no sense that they're being prioritised. They didn't appear on Double or Nothing, and it looks likely that they won't appear on the All Out card. They're being treated very inconsistently, despite clearly being one of the most over - and entertaining - acts AEW has. Putting the titles on Swerve in Their Glory was a bit of an odd move, and even at the time it seemed like a bad choice. I think Khan is failing to capitalise on FTR's momentum quite spectacularly. Ok. I'm expecting them to win the belts at All Out, so I guess we'll see. Quote I don't know, but if that is indeed the case, it's been bad to the point that intervention has been required for a long time. I don't think there's any real excuse for the way that division has been treated. Honestly, none of the talent have impressed me in that division. Some of that, for sure, is booking, but some of it seems to be the seriously gaping weaknesses they each have. I'm not sure how to fix it. Quote I don't think we're as far away in our viewpoints as you might think. I think he'd be better off focusing on the big picture too - but as part of that, I think he should be more hands off in booking both AEW and ROH. Clearly he can identify good and bad matches, and that's great. I think he fails a bit at pushing fresh acts, female acts and, sometimes, capitalising on momentum. Some of that may be the product of someone who is trying to do too much. I think it's great that he gives wrestlers as much creative control as he does, but I think he needs a good editor - someone who understands his vision for AEW, and can help him execute it; while also being honest enough with him to challenge his quirks and bad habits. I guess I think the difference is I think the shows are better than you seem to, and I'm happy with TK as the lead booker, I just want him to work in a team to help him. I'm not convinced the point about pushing fresh acts is true, Hobbs, Starks and Jungle Boy are moving up the card atm, as is Daniel Garcia. Eddie Kingston has probably never been so well featured on TV and they're trying something with Wheeler Yuta. He does definitely need someone that can be a mentor/challenger to him and people to take control of booking undercards, but I don't think they're far away. Interesting discussion though, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted August 13, 2022 Share Posted August 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said: Bob Mould had the book for WCW for a while, the Husker Du bloke! That's mad! How did that come about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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