General Erection 2019

[Hannibal Scorch]

@David if you won’t even vote, what’s the point in your rants?

[Max Power]

2 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

@David if you won’t even vote, what’s the point in your rants?

Christ knows but I can't be arsed with that.

[BomberPat]

The thing is, it's not really on us to bridge the gap. It's all well and good to say "let's try and find compromise, it's the media that's made them racist", but the media isn't going anywhere, and they're not getting any less racist.

Jonathan Swift said that you can't reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned in to - racism is irrational, and stupid, and trying to argue against it rationally obviously doesn't work, or else it wouldn't exist. I've lost count of how many times I've pointed out that some bit of racist rhetoric or cooked up Islamophobic story isn't true, provided evidence, and got a response that's basically, "yeah, but it feels true". It's the political equivalent of believing an urban legend because it definitely happened to a mate of a mate of a mate.

Now, if I was doorstepping, or campaigning? Yeah, it absolutely falls to me to try and reason with these people. I've done it before, when someone has launched into an anti-immigrant rant on the doorstep, I've tried to get them to a point of identifying their actual problems - it's rare that they're going to flat out say, "I don't like foreigns" (though some will), so you'll get stuff about benefits, about using our health service, taking our jobs, taking up homes, and so on, at which point you say, "okay, so the issue is with resources", and find a different angle from which to discuss the problem.

 

But if I'm just talking personally, posting on a message board, or otherwise not in a position to try and win people over? Yeah, I'll probably tell the racists to fuck off. Yes, it can be argued that they arrived at their bigoted opinions through the influence of the media, or maybe through family, or their social circle, or whatever, but in the moment, I couldn't really give a toss about that. When members of my family are in tears because they've been racially abused, my first instinct is rarely to say, "have you considered talking to the racists and finding a middle ground?" or "have you tried suggesting that they read the Guardian?". 

[Loki]

18 hours ago, Max Power said:

"I'm not taking that, the p*k* cunt". Happens every day.

 

7 hours ago, David said:

Are there actual racist people in among the group you speak of?

 

You love anecdotal evidence, David, so you should take Max's word for it.  Of course all 17 million Leave voters aren't racists. But it's not a small number.  We are becoming a very bigoted nation again, after a brief period where we learned to love our darker skinned countrymen and their crazy cooking.   If you use language to denigrate people because of their ethnicity (after all, there are no scientific separate human races) you're a racist, whether you're a bin man or Boris Johnson.  Pretending it's all the fault of the media, and they've a large part of the blame, but that just excuses people giving in to their baser instincts.

[David]

7 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

@David if you won’t even vote, what’s the point in your rants?

On here? Just to pass the time really. I don't rant about it in real life. I don't even really follow it all that closely in real life. I used to, I was a pretty involved socialist campaigner years back, but in all honesty it just got too depressing. Aside from this forum I don't even read the news most of the time. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't even have known there was a General Election in December.

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

The thing is, it's not really on us to bridge the gap. It's all well and good to say "let's try and find compromise, it's the media that's made them racist", but the media isn't going anywhere, and they're not getting any less racist.

Jonathan Swift said that you can't reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned in to - racism is irrational, and stupid, and trying to argue against it rationally obviously doesn't work, or else it wouldn't exist. I've lost count of how many times I've pointed out that some bit of racist rhetoric or cooked up Islamophobic story isn't true, provided evidence, and got a response that's basically, "yeah, but it feels true". It's the political equivalent of believing an urban legend because it definitely happened to a mate of a mate of a mate.

Now, if I was doorstepping, or campaigning? Yeah, it absolutely falls to me to try and reason with these people. I've done it before, when someone has launched into an anti-immigrant rant on the doorstep, I've tried to get them to a point of identifying their actual problems - it's rare that they're going to flat out say, "I don't like foreigns" (though some will), so you'll get stuff about benefits, about using our health service, taking our jobs, taking up homes, and so on, at which point you say, "okay, so the issue is with resources", and find a different angle from which to discuss the problem.

But if I'm just talking personally, posting on a message board, or otherwise not in a position to try and win people over? Yeah, I'll probably tell the racists to fuck off. Yes, it can be argued that they arrived at their bigoted opinions through the influence of the media, or maybe through family, or their social circle, or whatever, but in the moment, I couldn't really give a toss about that. When members of my family are in tears because they've been racially abused, my first instinct is rarely to say, "have you considered talking to the racists and finding a middle ground?" or "have you tried suggesting that they read the Guardian?". 

I've seen instances of people who have been hardcore racists, as in nazi-type scumbags who've changed their outlook because they've actually been reasoned with in the past. Rather than being confronted with anger (which is what most of them seem to want, by the way) they've been gotten through to by a different approach.

Regardless, my point is that as it is, it's a "fight" that will never be won by either side. Angry, unreasonable people on both sides vying for short-term control and "their way" in a fight that never ends. 

34 minutes ago, Loki said:

You love anecdotal evidence, David, so you should take Max's word for it.  Of course all 17 million Leave voters aren't racists. But it's not a small number.  We are becoming a very bigoted nation again, after a brief period where we learned to love our darker skinned countrymen and their crazy cooking.   If you use language to denigrate people because of their ethnicity (after all, there are no scientific separate human races) you're a racist, whether you're a bin man or Boris Johnson.  Pretending it's all the fault of the media, and they've a large part of the blame, but that just excuses people giving in to their baser instincts.

Yeah, you could be right. Maybe I'm placing more faith in people than they deserve in that respect, giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

In that case, as you were. Continue as is and I guess we'll see how it all plays out. I'll pop into this thread now & then for regular updates on it all, but I get the feeling that it's not going to end all that well.

[Cod Eye]

The politics here in Barnsley are really fucking strange. Almost all wards are almost nailed on Labour seats(the old saying goes you could put a red rosette on a broom here and it woud be voted in), but the lave vote was mega high, and as @Max Powerpoints out(as does the cringe inducing video he posted) the anti immigration mindset seems deeply ingrained into the older inhabitants. The two mindsets are at total polar opposites(the traditional labour fundamentals and the "kick em out mantality) so no idea how this election will go. You might see the LibDems, BREXIT Party and Greens making headways though(and the odd indipendant), as the idea of voting Tory is(rightfully) totally out of the question...

[MPDTT]

Voting lib dems, I want to kill Brexit, but at the same time I want to see Corbyn crushed

[hallicks]

What's the lib dem stance on Brexit today? 

[BigJag]

They want to remain.

[The King Of Swing]

1 hour ago, MPDTT said:

Voting lib dems, I want to kill Brexit, but at the same time I want to see Corbyn crushed

The only chance I see of killing Brexit outright is a LabLib coalition.

Conservative majority would ensure whatever Brexit they want, largest party would probably see a minority government with Labour either abstaining on Johnson's current deal or even voting with it largely because of fatigue.

The SNP would use Brexit as a way to further push independence.

The Brexit Ballbags could really damage either of the big two, though it should be noted that people believed that UKIP would devastate the Labour vote in 2017 which of course didn't happen. In fact I think (Lister might know more on this) many went back to Labour.

My completely unqualified take.

[hallicks]

1 hour ago, BigJag said:

They want to remain.

Revoke or 2nd ref? What options on 2nd ref if so? 

[BigJag]

That's Labour, no?

[hallicks]

37 minutes ago, BigJag said:

That's Labour, no?

How do they want to remain, I mean. Straight up revoke A50 or peoples vote? 

[quote the raven]

1 hour ago, hallicks said:

Revoke or 2nd ref? What options on 2nd ref if so? 

Dems want revoke. If given a majority 

labour want to get a different deal, then offer that and remain in a second ref. Most of the front bench  have said they will campaign for remain in said ref. 

Which could mean the person that gets a new deal could actively campaign against their own deal. 

Edited November 2, 2019 by quote the raven

[Loki]

5 hours ago, hallicks said:

What's the lib dem stance on Brexit today? 

Same as it's been for about 6 months.

If they were to win a majority in a General Election, they'd Revoke Article 50 and remain  (obv very unlikely!)

Otherwise they will push for a second referendum, and campaign in that for Remain.