Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, jazzygeofferz said: It's the conflation of criticising some. Of the actions carried out by the regime in place in Israel with Antisemitism, isn't it? As if there aren't Jewish people in the world that also denounce what the Israeli government do sometimes. There are several circles in the Venn Diagram, at least five: Jews, Israelis, Zionists, the Israeli government, and right-wingers. The right-wing Zionist strategy is to get people to believe that that is all one circle. The counter-strategy has to be to make people realise that a lot of Jews aren't Israeli, that a lot of Israelis are critical of their government, that there are left-wing/socialist Zionist organisations (like Hashomer Hatzair), and that a lot of the right-wing Zionists supporting the Israeli government are actually American evangelical Christian fundamentalists. 1 minute ago, BomberPat said: There's a lot more to it than that, but I think the key point of @LaGoosh's post is that whether you believe Corbyn is antisemitic or not, or whether you believe he has knowingly or otherwise fostered an environment of antisemitism, the right wing who made a lot of noise about it hadn't shown much public concern about antisemitism before Corbyn, and it's disappeared almost entirely from the agenda post-Corbyn. Absolutely. The reason I mentioned the racism against other ethnic minorities is because I believe it to be evidence that the Gentile right don't give a fuck about Jews really; if you're anti-discrimination in earnest, you'd be anti-racism against all minorities, not just Jews. Also, quite frankly, given that the Jewish population of the UK is only a few hundred thousand (half of which are the ultra-Orthodox Charedi/Hasidim who are mostly hermetic and barely interact with Gentiles socially as a point of religious belief), I daresay that a huge chunk of those people going on about antisemitic racism don't even know any Jews. I know it's not at all an acceptable basis for wanting fairness and justice, but I'm taking into account the simple reality that, in practice, people generally tend to show solidarity with and support for communities that they regularly come into contact with, and don't want to see suffer. Edited December 18, 2020 by Carbomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members stumobir Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, patiirc said: Im sorry, but the press thing is utter baws People havent consumed information in traditional means for a long time and even as far back as 2010 it was being hailed as a digital election. I will try and dig out the reference points when I have time Novara, AAV, Canary and all of the other sites that get shares tweets, retweets cut and pastes and copies mean that the 'left' actually had ta bigger reach than the traditional print reach. Doorstepping proved people despised Corbyn, and 99.9 per cent of the time the reasons were naff all to do with what was in the papers. Shit leader, untrustworthy over Brexit, too much of a campaigner, untrustworthy in general and about his goals not the greater good and a million and one other things were given as reasons. Naff all to do with Silly hats, jigs before the Cenotaph and the never ending Anti Semitism (Actually all Isms) that flourished under his leadership, looking at you Terfs which started there amongst other things. Labour could have won with A N Other, with the same policies however as confirmed by the recent Labour report into things as well as Miliband's post election report Jeremy, much like Swanson went rougue, ignored everything put to them, fell out with the leadership team and the rest. It saddens me that people still buy into the sun wot done it or whatever else however mass news and information has changed and many people will see a cartoon, or an Meme or political thing on facey or Twitter or Insta or whatever and use that to form their bias and perceptions. Red wall is a different kettle of fish and basically Labour's assumption and continuation thereafter that the Redwall, would vote for them come what may as well as having a leader they detested meant that it was never going to happen. People in red wall seats were screaming this for years yet, managers and others within the CLP didnt listen to the canvassers and doorsteppers. It was certainly no shock that Blackpool and Burnley etc went blue apart from to those who had their fingers in the ears. It's not the message It's the fact that Labour doesnt know what it is , what it wants and is continually at odds with itself. It needs to split and regroup else nothing will change. Boring, bullshit and barely makes sense: The Holy Trinity of a Pat Post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Many of the criticisms of Corbyn and anti Semitism are exactly the same as criticisms of halal slaughter. They don’t actually care, they have a convenient stick to hit their opponent with. And it’s a disgusting thing to do as it trivialises the very real problem of anti Semitism in our society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Hannibal Scorch said: I think you post is utter baws if i'm honest. If you don't think people are influenced by print or TV media still, then I hate to be the barer of bad news. Back quickly for some more links.. and for some reason cannot downspace the first quote, never mind Ofcom news consumption https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0013/201316/news-consumption-2020-report.pdf The break down is that most news consumption is from BBC/ITV then Facebook eventually we get to the Daily Mail, or more pertinently the Mail on Sunday which is mainly 60+White women according to demographics. Which according to You Gov that cohort are the traditional Tory voters anyway as seen by the last election https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election So in order to prove the assertion that the media representations were instrumental, in defeat say for example last time out, you'd have to prove a) media bias b) studies of analytics and pre and post voting based on that and then look at if people admitted the media 'swung their vote' Looking at specifically social media from places such as this for 2017 https://www.onebite.co.uk/news-and-views/social-media-help-swing-2017-general-election-results/ Quote In the lead up to the election, especially the early weeks, the traditional press has been far more likely to attack Jeremy Corbyn than Theresa May – and newspaper and TV coverage has been cited as being bias. The findings are backed up in the second report of an election audit from Loughborough’s Centre for Research in Communication and Culture. However, on social media, it’s a different story. May gets on average just 716 retweets compared with Corbyn’s 2,533 – and most of the comments Corbyn receives seem generally supportive, while May’s do not. Less than a week before polling day, the Press Gazette found that the most shared news stories about the general election on social media were overwhelmingly anti-Tory and pro-Labour. The most shared election story on social media over the past week was an article by The London Economic reporting on a “viral” pro-Labour Facebook post. The story headlined: This Facebook comment about Jeremy Corbyn is going viral” – and includes lines such as “We’ve waited forever for an honest politician to come along but instead of getting behind him we bow to the establishment…” The story has been shared a total of 57,300 times across social media and 54,500 times on Facebook alone. The second and third most shared were stories by the Daily Mirror: “Why should I not vote Conservative? 29 nasty policies you shouldn’t forget in the 2017 general election,” and “Tory Michael Fallon slates ‘Jeremy Corbyn quote’ live on air – then realises they were Boris Johnson’s words,”. And then looking at Kalieda analytics in the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/25-most-shared-articles-about-the-uk-election-labour-jeremy-corbyn Labour or left shares far outstrip those of the right and this is the 3rd most popular way of consuming news behind the Television It's been that way since 2010 https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Did-social-media-change-the-2010-General-Election or https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/apr/30/social-media-election-2010 I'll add more when I can, but yeah the right wing media being the 'influence' isnt actually a thing, and indeed the opposite is true as confirmed by a number of sources and analytics 58 minutes ago, Carbomb said: https://medialandscapes.org/country/united-kingdom/media/print#:~:text=Print newspapers are read by,percent between 2010 and 2018. That's nearly half the population of the country. Total votes cast in 2019 was 32 million. See above especially re News consumption from Ofcom 52 minutes ago, Astro Hollywood said: Every election in the last decade has proved the exact opposite. We all think differently, trapped in our echo chambers of memes, but the vast majority of voters who got the Tories in and voted Leave are still quaffing down newspapers and watching the teatime news on a daily basis. It's why everyone was so shocked by the disparity of the results versus how it seemed online - "How could this be?! Owen Jones said Corbyn had it in the bag! And I've been posting some very funny Tweets about Boris which surely he can't have recovered from..." Meanwhile, everyone's parents are still off down the newsagent every day, and if they do see something online, it's a headline on Facebook from the Murdoch paper they read anyway. I mean See above regarding demographics and the rest 42 minutes ago, BomberPat said: and how did they come to that decision, if it wasn't through how he was reported on in the media? The idea that The Canary had more reach than The Sun or The Mail is utterly preposterous. 1.) Ask them, speak to them and allow for free thought, rather than some kind of sheeple concept, as mentioned above more was actually Pro Labour than anti. so erm... you're going to have to explain that and has been since 2010 2.) See the shares, news feeds, seedings and the rest I hate the Tories with a passion, however I also hate that Labour are stuck behind old tired worn cliches that no longer are relevant and relate to mythologies. For Labour to win they need to forget the past and not just fight the Tories and be binary opposites. Or else that is all they will ever be, just an opposite. So much more there and so much more that could be added, but sadly I d ont have the time. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, patiirc said: So much more there and so much more that could be added, but sadly I d ont have the time. That is the funniest thing I've ever read on here. The size of that post and you claim not to have the time. You had your arse handed to you by everyone but you try and bore everyone to death with a massive post, then you try and flounce off at the end to try and put it behind you. Bore off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, patiirc said: 1.) Ask them, speak to them and allow for free thought, rather than some kind of sheeple concept, as mentioned above more was actually Pro Labour than anti. so erm... you're going to have to explain that and has been since 2010 Again, that "free thought" and any answers to the questions you're asking them aren't being formed in a vacuum - it's expressly informed by news coverage and discourse they see elsewhere. And, consistently, the right have a greater control of that discourse, often down to the very language we use. The extent to which social media or online news may have outstripped traditional media assumes that they have a parity of influence, or are held in equal esteem by people consuming them. That a liked Tweet or a shared Facebook post would carry the same weight as a BBC TV news story or a front page headline. Fundamentally, that isn't true for the vast majority of people, and something like the "most shared posts" article again doesn't exist in a vacuum - that the most shared posts are coming from non-traditional sources doesn't mean that the people sharing them aren't also consuming news through traditional means, or through the osmosis of seeing front page headlines every time they do their shopping, the TV on in Wetherspoons, or water cooler chat about half-remembered headlines on the Mail Online. Or, indeed, that the content of those posts from political blogs, non-traditional media and so on aren't themselves informed by the content, language and editorial direction of traditional media. None of that is to say that people couldn't have got full possession of the facts and decided they just didn't like Corbyn or Labour under Corbyn. There was plenty of reasons to reach that conclusion. But to pretend that the opinions of people on the doorstep was somehow formed entirely independently of the entire public discourse around the election is ridiculous. Edited December 18, 2020 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Carbomb said: https://medialandscapes.org/country/united-kingdom/media/print#:~:text=Print newspapers are read by,percent between 2010 and 2018. That's nearly half the population of the country. Total votes cast in 2019 was 32 million. 26 minutes ago, patiirc said: See above especially re News consumption from Ofcom About to pop out, so will just address this for the moment: Your original point that I initially addressed was that "people don't consume print media". Nothing about demographics. This is patently incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 29 minutes ago, patiirc said: Back quickly for some more links.. and for some reason cannot downspace the first quote, never mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, patiirc said: It's the fact that Labour doesnt know what it is , what it wants and is continually at odds with itself. It needs to split and regroup else nothing will change. I disagree with you about the media's influence but I do think this is a good point. Since Blair, Labour have no real reason to exist aside from "getting in power". It's not really surprising that they'll constantly fight over the best way to achieve that. Aside from "Stopping the Tories" why would you vote Labour? What would they do if they actually got into power? They don't even really use "Stop The Tories" up in Scotland anymore. They are all about "Stopping the SNP!" here, even though that's a different thing entirely, Aberdeen Council is made up by a coalition of Tories and Labour Councillors, who've just voted to ignore Devolution and ask for funding directly from Westminster. Labour have suspended them, granted, but imagine voting for a Labour candidate and then seeing them essentially defect to the Tories? Fuck that. I do wish they'd get their shit together, because as it currently stands, they really are unelectable. Imagine them trying to campaign for an election now? They've created a narrative where "Labour is rife with anti-Semitism" is an undisputable fact and any attempt to play it down, or defend the Party is enough to get you suspended. How the fuck are you supposed to address people's concerns on the doorstep? They really need to stop fucking about. This is the worst, most destructive Government in my life time, possibly in history, and Labour, in it's current form, are giving them an easy ride, if not actively assisting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 3 hours ago, BomberPat said: Tribalism obviously exists, but it doesn't account for the amount of people who stopped voting Labour. We can't talk in one breath about tribalism and in the other about the fall of the Red Wall. I think it's, if anything, the least important measure of why people vote the way they do. Personality politics is a large part of it - most people don't have the time to read through manifestos and familiarise themselves with a candidate's position, they'll just vote for the person they think is most trustworthy or whatever their metric is. Whether people accept it or not, those decisions are hugely influenced by the media, and we have the most right-wing press in Europe. No Labour leader since Blair, and few before, have ever been given a fair shake by English newspapers. Since The Sun went Tory in '79, no party endorsed by them has lost a general election. Even if you're not reading the papers, they're visible in the shop, they inform the news that makes it on to TV and social media, and what the right have been very good at is controlling that narrative. Whether or not you think, for example, that Jeremy Corbyn was an antisemite, you couldn't escape the question - and that's all that matters; if the press can get the words "Corbyn" and "antisemitism" together in as many headlines as possible, the substance of it is immaterial. With Kier Starmer, him taking a knee is painted as sympathy for criminal elements and anti-British protesters, and the fringe of the right wing have tried to tie him to everyone from Jimmy Savile to ISIS. Again, the point isn't whether the story is accurate or not so much as whether they can create that association in people's heads. The right are just better at that sort of thing than we are. They're better at stories, language, narratives, they're better at appeals to emotion. The right-wing case for leaving the EU, for example, is easier to make than a centre-left argument for remaining a member, because it's a story, it's an appeal to emotion. You don't have to refer to data or legal arguments, you refer to abstract concepts of sovereignty, self-governance and nationalism, that the public can then interpret in whatever way most appeals to them, and convince themselves that you were talking directly to them all along. The frustrating thing is that we know all of this to be true. It used to piss me off hearing Corbyn supporters complain that they'd have done so much better if the press wasn't arraigned against them - I'm sure they would, but you knew going in that the press wasn't on your side. Any campaign strategy that fails to account for that is doomed to fail, so don't use it as an excuse after the fact. Labour - and the left across the western world - need to get better at communicating, and need to get much better at spreading their message outside of traditional media channels; and, increasingly, outside of new media as well, because the right in the Anglosphere seem to have a stranglehold on social media campaigning and disinformation too. Spot on. As @Carbombsaid, the policies of the left have always had popular support but it's the framing of the message & more importantly, who's delivering it. The Tories are well aware of this which is why (going back to the leaked newsletter about employing 'Trump tactics') the shift has been away from policy. If you look at the last election aside from 'getting Brexit done' I'd be amazed if many could tell you another Tory policy which influenced their vote. British politics has been framed as a culture war over traditional policy led campaigning & rather than voting for the Conservatives, many 'new' Tories were voting against the snowflakes, the vegans, LGBTQ & the woke agenda. This is what Labour now represents to them. The most frustrating thing when campaigning was being told repeatedly 'Labour have deserted the working classes' as I'd think of it in terms of policy. Always highlighting our policies protecting employment rights, increeased child care etc but it's not about any of that. Those things absolutely matter but what people were seeing was Boris being attacked for joking that women in Bhurkas looked like letterboxes and that he referred to gay blokes as 'bumboys'. Reality is that loads of people have said or heard the same thing in jest & are now being told that they're scumbags for doing so. It's not about 'appeasing racists', more about choosing your attack lines that aren't going to alienate the electorate. The fact that patriotism has been allowed to be co-opted as the sole property of the right is also a massive factor, it doesn't help when the party leader refuses to sing the national anthem ffs. Personally I couldn't give a fuck either way but at what point does it not occur that these aren't good optics? Over the next 4 (more likely 7) years the left need to desperately try to reframe patriotism as looking after the elderly, having the best public services possible & creating an environment where our children can have a sense of hope.Not just singing 'Rule Brittania' whilst shafting key workers. I honestly believe that people are more receptive to this over just pointing out the other sides hypocrisy. We also need to avoid getting drawn into more of this 'culture war' stuff. This will be the hardest part IMO because it seems that every time some distracting shit like 'They want to ban Fawlty Towers' arises there's always some wet cunt who'll go on the telly to represent 'the left' & talk about how it's 'problematic' and/or 'part of wider discussion that needs to be had' & just serves to remind viewers why they stopped voting Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) it's absolutely a culture war issue, and the identity of "working class" forms a huge part of it. You have landlords and business owners being presented as "working class" in the media, and people of colour and immigrants being presented as something other than working class rather than often being part of that economic bracket. The Tories have done a fantastic job of rallying around "working class" as a cultural signifier rather than an economic one. One problem of the "broad church" approach of the left is that it's really hard to join the dots. LGBTQ+ issues, anti-racism, and equality aren't something separate to working class issues, they are working class issues. But we haven't had control of the conversation to make that argument. Edited December 18, 2020 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators neil Posted December 18, 2020 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2020 22 hours ago, Carbomb said: It's something I really don't understand about the left's or the purported centre's response in both this country and the US, that they haven't challenged this narrative effectively, or even at all. Donald Trump is as establishment as they come - he's just not of the political wing of the establishment. But nobody with any volume is saying this. Having watched this unfold over the last 4+ years I've come to the conclusion that its just very hard unless you're willing to throw any sense of decorum out the window. The rights behaviour seems to be that of a child - its either yelling a bunch of shit and moving to the next piece of shit erratically, winding up the other side until they have a pop back and then either crying about being attacked, saying how rude it is, or making fun of them getting so wound up. And then if they finally get chided by their parent (media/debate moderator/etc) they cry about how they've been attacked and its proof of how they are unfairly treated. It really feels like a lose-lose situation unless you just decide that you're ok with throwing out your core beliefs of how people should interact at that level. Personally I really don't want to see all political parties take the approach of the right, but I don't know how really deal with it. The whole "they go low we go high" approach doesn't seem to work, ignoring them doesn't seem to work, relying on the public to see through it doesn't work, the media calling it out doesn't work (its all fake innit). What the fuck are you supposed to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted December 18, 2020 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2020 I think it's probably a delicate act of maintaining decorum but also refusing to engage with people who are not acting in good faith when they clearly are not. Fuck knows what that looks like though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 20 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said: I think it's probably a delicate act of maintaining decorum but also refusing to engage with people who are not acting in good faith when they clearly are not. Fuck knows what that looks like though. So, it’ll be like replying to David, then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said: I think it's probably a delicate act of maintaining decorum but also refusing to engage with people who are not acting in good faith when they clearly are not. Fuck knows what that looks like though. Absolutely. I think a slight change in approach in TV interviews is needed, just call out blatant lies & be a little more confrontational. Starmers done a good job at PMQs slapping Johnson down by simply quoting his own lies back to him. More of this at every opportunity is a good place to start, means opposition MP's are going to need to be better prepared though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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