Little Johnny Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 4 hours ago, patiirc said: It's not the message It's the fact that Labour doesnt know what it is , what it wants and is continually at odds with itself. It needs to split and regroup else nothing will change. 2 hours ago, unfitfinlay said: I disagree with you about the media's influence but I do think this is a good point. Since Blair, Labour have no real reason to exist aside from "getting in power". It's not really surprising that they'll constantly fight over the best way to achieve that. Wouldn't both parties get obliterated under First Past The Post, leading us right back to where we are today? For me, your best hope is the Tories becoming so complacent that they contrive to choose a leader less electable than Theresa May. Does that alone give you more than one term in power though? I don't think it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: That is the funniest thing I've ever read on here. The size of that post and you claim not to have the time. You had your arse handed to you by everyone but you try and bore everyone to death with a massive post, then you try and flounce off at the end to try and put it behind you. Bore off. Well I'm glad you had a laugh and a chortle and can come back with a bore off, There's no flounce here . 1. It's tough to present a view that others are not going to agree with. I expected a lot of shit and got exactly that because there's no willingness to change in Labour, it's paralysing, You have 'classics' such as it's the press against us, except it's not, demonstrably so. People have brought into something that's routed in the past and accepted it and not realised it changed. There wouldn't be the brouhaha about Cambridge Analytica, algorithms, bots, etc etc if people were not consuming their news more and more frequently from non traditional sources. Not everyone is out to get Labour, and Labour significantly won the Social Media war as previously demonstrated and also relayed here https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-election-labour-dominated-social-media-but-got-crushed-anyway-2019-12?r=US&IR=T You have classics like we're representative of the workers. Cept as per polling they arent, the working classes are more likely to vote Tory https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/election-results-working-class-age-tories-labour-boris-johnson-yougov-a9249936.html 2. Labour need an identity. At present they are framed as being the opposite to Tory and only that.Which would be great except no one will vote for them. They've lost Scotland, Lost Wales (according to some) have seen their local counsellors cut and lost every set of elections contested from the first locals when Jeremy was elected leader. They havent won a GE since 2005 Locals since 2015 and are consistently losing. Attacking the Tories for being arseholes is not working else they would have won something by now. Unfortunately Blairites, Corbynistas and the various other factions appear to be involved in some kind of power struggle as to be the most wholesome or morally right version of Labour. Theoretically its great, politically it's suicidal. Do they want to be moral, just and help, or do they want a softer side? How far is too left and how far is too central? 3. Labour has Isms write large. There's a reason the EHRC applied to all Isms and not just anti semitism within the recent report and action plan. Shouts that other parties are worse isnt getting to the crux of the issue, because these things still exist and need to be equally dealt with, not turned in to yet another war about who is more just or more worthy. If someone complains about an ism then the new action plan ensures it gets investigated and the results are for the complainant and the complainee. Rights to Privacy and GDPR need to be respected so throwing names or actions over social media or partisanal media really isnt going to resolve any thing. Yes, other parties have their issues, and I hope the EHRC comes down on them as well, but one party having issues, as well, doesnt absolve another from having to sort their own out. 4. Perhaps the most important thing is to start fighting better, picking battles that they can win, or enact change. By that I mean dont start World War 3 over the something like some one has voted for an other party or calling their own members traitors and so on. The asthetics are terrible suggest a massive amount of arrogance and haughtiness and are massively off putting to electoral populus. Repeating the mantra that all X party people are bastards, thick, racists or whatever else is putting up barriers and further isolating Labour as main. That's not media hype or crap, indeed that Ofcom report I posted earlier proves that. Chuck in horse shoe effect (Only believe Labour sources, dont trust MSM in plays straight out of Trumpian politics) and why should an electoral trust a party that's most comfortable fighting each other and everyone else? Being united over something would be a start that isnt Tory's are bastards and it doesnt mean that the party should default to a binary opposite for the sake of it either, or it continues to fight against something it cant win making it look impotent and punch drunk. I voted Green last time out and would do so again tomorrow if the need arose, I get an affiliate vote for Labour Leadership through Union Membership (voted Starmer) and have more than a passing interest in having some form of functional opposition that actually works and can actually do something rather than destroy itself. For my cohort I want a party that doesnt demonise or hate us Both Tories and Labour do that in spades (Terfs started in Labour!) Should they get their arse in gear then I am quite happy to get behind them, I actually liked most of the Labour manifesto but couldnt vote for them because a)isms b) Corbyn's atrocious leadership, as a campaigner he would have made the most wonderful home secretary c) continual bickering and infighting and d) they were a leave party. I'm quite happy to be called all the things under the sun because I hold a different view. I was disenfranchised for about 10 years because of transition and had no say in many of the issues that affect our day to day life since then I have had no say in whatsoever including the Brexit vote. Screaming for someone to pick up the reigns and do something meaningful in the intervening years has been fruitless, frustrating and full of for fucks sake moments, however that doesnt mean I am just going to default to a party full of issues because they are the other and that is something that Labour really need to address before they cede even more ground. Edited December 18, 2020 by patiirc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, patiirc said: 1. It's tough to present a view that others are not going to agree with. I expected a lot of shit and got exactly that because there's no willingness to change in Labour, it's paralysing, You have 'classics' such as it's the press against us, except it's not, demonstrably so. People have brought into something that's routed in the past and accepted it and not realised it changed. There wouldn't be the brouhaha about Cambridge Analytica, algorithms, bots, etc etc if people were not consuming their news more and more frequently from non traditional sources. What is your explanation for the circulation figures I posted earlier? You seem to have just waved them away. Just because more people are consuming news via non-traditional methods (and that isn't the same as "non-traditional sources", as most major newspapers have an online presence, the Daily Mail having one of the world's largest online readerships) doesn't mean that print media isn't being read also, especially when it's almost as high as the voter turnout in 2019. Quote 3. Labour has Isms write large. There's a reason the EHRC applied to all Isms and not just anti semitism within the recent report and action plan. Shouts that other parties are worse isnt getting to the crux of the issue, because these things still exist and need to be equally dealt with, not turned in to yet another war about who is more just or more worthy. If someone complains about an ism then the new action plan ensures it gets investigated and the results are for the complainant and the complainee. Rights to Privacy and GDPR need to be respected so throwing names or actions over social media or partisanal media really isnt going to resolve any thing. Yes, other parties have their issues, and I hope the EHRC comes down on them as well, but one party having issues, as well, doesnt absolve another from having to sort their own out. So the -isms are irrelevant to whether or not Labour get voted in, then? Because the entire point of discussing the Tories' racism, Islamophobia, etc., isn't just whataboutery as people try to make out; it's because people are directly citing these -isms as a reason for not voting for Labour, yet not for not voting Tory or BxP. Quote I'm quite happy to be called all the things under the sun because I hold a different view. I was disenfranchised for about 10 years because of transition and had no say in many of the issues that affect our day to day life since then I have had no say in whatsoever including the Brexit vote. Are you trying to equate the criticism of your political views on here to the persecution you faced for your struggles in transitioning? Edited December 18, 2020 by Carbomb Sorry, got a bit riled there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, patiirc said: Terfs started in Labour! Did they fuck. Edit - Can we get back to calling tories cunts now please? We don’t need another pat bore-athon. Edited December 18, 2020 by Keith Houchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Did they fuck. I missed that bit. The hell kind of logic is that, given that there are TERFs all across the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, Carbomb said: What is your explanation for the circulation figures I posted earlier? You seem to have just waved them away. Just because more people are consuming news via non-traditional methods (and that isn't the same as "non-traditional sources", as most major newspapers have an online presence, the Daily Mail having one of the world's largest online readerships) doesn't mean that print media isn't being read also, especially when it's almost as high as the voter turnout in 2019. So the -isms are irrelevant to whether or not Labour get voted in, then? Because the entire point of discussing the Tories' racism, Islamophobia, etc., isn't just whataboutery as people try to make out; it's because people are directly citing these -isms as a reason for not voting for Labour, yet not for not voting Tory or BxP. Are you trying to equate the criticism of your political views on here to the persecution you faced for your struggles in transitioning? Because if so, that's really fucking cheap, and, quite frankly, disgusting. 1.)I went off the ofcom figures on news consumption, I've not waived them away. Just prefer the other breakdown. 2.)Isms are very relavent. Because one party has them as well doesnt mean you get to score points over which party is more racist or homophobic. It's still racism and homophobia and just as hurtful for those who have to suffer because of it. 3.) No i was expressing my very real frustration of watching the uk implode in multiple different ways and being able to do the grand total of fucking nothing about it because I was denied a vote because of transition. but thanks for trying to explain my own views back at me. I find that cheap and disgusting, but hey ho. Go nuts about political view points, clearly we all have them or this thread wouldnt be so heated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, Carbomb said: I missed that bit. The hell kind of logic is that, given that there are TERFs all across the world? And obviously they were around before the coinage, but it originated regarding an American music festival for women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) Quote 2.)Isms are very relavent. Because one party has them as well doesnt mean you get to score points over which party is more racist or homophobic. It's still racism and homophobia and just as hurtful for those who have to suffer because of it. It's not about scoring points, as I've just fucking said. It's about people citing them as reasons to not vote for one party over another. If you're going to be snide, at least address points actually made. Quote 3.) No i was expressing my very real frustration of watching the uk implode in multiple different ways and being able to do the grand total of fucking nothing about it because I was denied a vote because of transition. but thanks for trying to explain my own views back at me. I find that cheap and disgusting, but hey ho. Except I didn't try to "explain your views back to you". If you weren't trying to equate the criticism you were getting on here with your struggle, then why fucking mention both in the same paragraph? If you didn't want that connection being made, maybe try posting better. Edited December 18, 2020 by Carbomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 Well played, pat. You’ve made yet another thread all about yourself. You are the worlds most boring narcissist. Fuck the tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 The last few pages of this thread really have been the Christmas Present Nobody Wanted 🙁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Lorne Malvo said: The last few pages of this thread really have been the Christmas Present Nobody Wanted 🙁 Wish we'd kept the receipt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Did they fuck. Edit - Can we get back to calling tories cunts now please? We don’t need another pat bore-athon. All Labour, ex Labour Rosie Duffield Dr Rad Fem Linda Bellos Jennifer James Women's Place co founded by Kiri Tunks Anything related to the treatment of Lily Madigan Defend us or Expel Us movement 12 point plan to get rid of trans phobia within the party, because it is transphobic and are where uk Terfs were created. Owen Jones also agrees https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/owen-jones-there-are-examples-of-transphobia-from-the-top-to-the-bottom-of-the-labour-party/ But keep believing did if fuck, keith if it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted December 18, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, patiirc said: Owen Jones also agrees https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/owen-jones-there-are-examples-of-transphobia-from-the-top-to-the-bottom-of-the-labour-party/ Oh, well if Owen Jones says it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 And I suppose worldwide TERFs throughout history were also members of the UK Labour Party? You fucking arsehole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patiirc Posted December 18, 2020 Share Posted December 18, 2020 19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Well played, pat. You’ve made yet another thread all about yourself. You are the worlds most boring narcissist. Fuck the tories. Ta keith, appreciate it. Odd thing to say mind. It's almost like projection that's after the gaslighting. guess everyone else becomes flying monkeys. Is there anything else you wanna throw in there whilst your pissed off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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