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Vice: Dark Side of the Ring

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On what I assume is based on this, MLW has signed the Von Erichs to contracts. Knowing how they've treated cats in the past, Teddy Hart must be shitting himself.

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On 5/3/2019 at 8:11 AM, theringmaster said:

I enjoyed the doc but it actually was rather 'lite' on the truth I thought, pretty much all of the Von Erichs were heavy drug users and drugs played a major part in most of their deaths.

Yeah, I don't know why they released details about what David Von Erich's death certificate said or interviewed Kevin Von Erich, who was uniquely placed in having spoken to all three of his brothers in the time leading up to their suicides. What they should have done is interviewed some wrestling fans about rumours they'd heard on a forum.

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20 hours ago, Tamura said:

Yeah, I don't know why they released details about what David Von Erich's death certificate said or interviewed Kevin Von Erich, who was uniquely placed in having spoken to all three of his brothers in the time leading up to their suicides. What they should have done is interviewed some wrestling fans about rumours they'd heard on a forum.

Haha, Nice.

 

My comment is based on what EVERYONE around at the time has said EXCEPT the Von Erichs. I'm a HUGE Von Erich fan but there is no denying drugs were a major issue for all the boys. Death Corticate really doesn't mean much also, its pretty much been confirmed Fritz payed off the doctor to save face.

 

The truth will ALWAYS be subjective (and in the bigger picture of life doesn't not matter) but there is enough evidence to suggest David Von Erich's death was not as clean cut as they say

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5 hours ago, theringmaster said:

Haha, Nice.

 

My comment is based on what EVERYONE around at the time has said EXCEPT the Von Erichs. I'm a HUGE Von Erich fan but there is no denying drugs were a major issue for all the boys. Death Corticate really doesn't mean much also, its pretty much been confirmed Fritz payed off the doctor to save face.

 

The truth will ALWAYS be subjective (and in the bigger picture of life doesn't not matter) but there is enough evidence to suggest David Von Erich's death was not as clean cut as they say

Confirmed by who?

Unless you've got some pretty strong evidence - not the DVDR "Sleaze Thread" - then you can't put something like that in a documentary without risking a lawsuit. It would've also cost them access to Kevin, who was really the focal point of the documentary.

I don't think getting deeper into the sleaze would've added to it anyway. The idea was to make the family sympathetic and tragic. If they brought up stuff like Fritz supposedly wanting to use Mike's death to put heat on the Freebirds (as in try and convince the fans that they'd killed him) or them forging David's signature to sell autographs to grieving fans, then it would've been a very different story. One that you aren't going to cover in 45 minutes.

I really enjoyed it.

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13 hours ago, theringmaster said:

My comment is based on what EVERYONE around at the time has said EXCEPT the Von Erichs. I'm a HUGE Von Erich fan but there is no denying drugs were a major issue for all the boys

That's not quite what you said originally.
 

On 5/3/2019 at 8:11 AM, theringmaster said:

I enjoyed the doc but it actually was rather 'lite' on the truth I thought, pretty much all of the Von Erichs were heavy drug users and drugs played a major part in most of their deaths.


I've put the key difference in bold for you. Yes, lots of people who were around World Class at the time talk about the boys' drug use (although I've never heard anyone say that about Chris, so I'm assuming he's excluded from "most"), but to say drugs played a major part in most of their deaths is going far beyond what people say. Jim Cornette mentions the boys' drug use in the documentary, so it's not like they didn't talk about it.

A common phrase I hear in shoot interviews or other published accounts by wrestlers is "I heard". This is a particularly unhelpful phrase for journalists or documentary makers, as it basically means the person doesn't have first hand knowledge of what they are talking about. All stories need to be chased down to their original source, since they tend to develop a life of their own as they are passed from one person to another. So leaving out questionable theories of unknown provenance is actually responsible documentary making, believe it or not.

I'm confused by what you think was missed out. We'll start with David. The rumours of his death by drug overdose were mentioned, as was Bruiser Brody allegedly cleaning up the hotel room (a claim which seems to originate from Ric Flair). So what was missed out? How about Bill Irwin's denial of the Brody story, and he was actually there and details what he saw.
 

Now for Mike. His arrest on possession of marijuana was mentioned, as was his death by drug overdose. So I'm struggling to work out what's been missed out? Kevin talks about it in more detail on his RF Video shoot interview, where he states his belief that Mike committed suicide because he would have thought his arrest for drug possession would have brought shame on the family. Seems a bit of an overreaction for a bag of weed, but Kevin knew Mike and I didn't.

Finally Kerry. Kevin says point blank "Kerry was doing drugs", and David Manning and Dave Meltzer also talk about Kerry's drug use. So what's been missed out? Again Kevin goes into more detail in his RF Video shoot and flat out calls Kerry a "junkie" and blames drugs for his suicide. 

The death of David will likely provoke debate from now until the heat death of the universe. I can't say for certain one way or another how he died, all I can do is look at what various people have said and make a subjective judgement based on that. To claim that your, my or anyone else's opinion on the deaths of David and the other brothers constitutes the "truth" would appear, at least to me, to be an unjustifiable conclusion based on the currently available evidence. 

Edited by Tamura

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On 5/7/2019 at 10:49 PM, IANdrewDiceClay said:

On what I assume is based on this, MLW has signed the Von Erichs to contracts. Knowing how they've treated cats in the past, Teddy Hart must be shitting himself.

Signing the Von Erichs off the back of a documentary about how much wrestling fucked up the Von Erich family is the most Von Erich move imaginable.

20 hours ago, unfitfinlay said:

I don't think getting deeper into the sleaze would've added to it anyway. The idea was to make the family sympathetic and tragic. If they brought up stuff like Fritz supposedly wanting to use Mike's death to put heat on the Freebirds (as in try and convince the fans that they'd killed him) or them forging David's signature to sell autographs to grieving fans, then it would've been a very different story.

To me this was a mis-step though. The story of the Von Erichs is the story of Fritz's sleazy business practices. Painting the whole family as nothing more than tragic victims just keeps alive this idea of "The Von Erich Curse", which all but exonerates Fritz for the significant hand he had in all of his family's woes. You can't talk about the woes of the Von Erichs without highlighting how hard Fritz pushed them, how much pressure he put on them, what he expected of them, and how he exploited them and the fans even at their lowest points.

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Caught the Gino Hernandez episode last night, good stuff. Thats the only story of the series that i had close to zero knowledge of so i found it really interesting. Wont go into it because of potential spoilers and i dont know if its aired here yet.

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On 5/10/2019 at 11:31 AM, BomberPat said:

To me this was a mis-step though. The story of the Von Erichs is the story of Fritz's sleazy business practices. Painting the whole family as nothing more than tragic victims just keeps alive this idea of "The Von Erich Curse", which all but exonerates Fritz for the significant hand he had in all of his family's woes. You can't talk about the woes of the Von Erichs without highlighting how hard Fritz pushed them, how much pressure he put on them, what he expected of them, and how he exploited them and the fans even at their lowest points.

I get where your coming from. Again, though, they only had 45 minutes to work with, which isn't even nearly enough time to cover that side of the story. They could rush through the Lance Von Erich debacle, for example, just by having Kevin say what a horrible mistake it was to lie to the fans. You can't do that when it comes to attributing blame for all the deaths. They'd actually need to investigate that and justify it. Plus there's no way Kevin is going cooperate with a documentary like that, which makes it even more complicated to film.

For what it was - a short documentary aimed at an audience who may not be familiar with wrestling - the story they told was fine. It was about a family who suffered some horrible tragedies and how the one surviving son is dealing with it. The only people who'll notice that stories are missing are people who already know them anyway.

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2 hours ago, Jacko said:

Whose stories would people like to see if they did a season 2?

Chris Benoit.

The Fabulous Moolah and the allegations against her.

Jimmy Snuka and the murder allegations.

Vince McMahon 1994 steroid trial.

The murder of Dino Bravo.

Droz.

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