The Smackers Thread

[air_raid]

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

But there was never a point, whether he had the title or not, that I didn't consider Roman Reigns the face of the company.

That’s fine, except I didn’t say “face of the company.” I said “made (him) wait too long and jerked (him) around” and reading with comprehension made it clear I was talking about title reigns, juxtaposed to the one he’s having now. Lex Luger was positioned as the new “face of the company” between July 4th 1993 and WrestleMania X, and he was jerked around so badly I refer to shit booking of your top guy in waiting as being “Lugered” - as far back as Survivor Series 2015 re: Reigns, with that one.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

In 2017 he was the main event of WrestleMania, simply because he was Roman Reigns.

You’re taking the piss, right? He main evented WrestleMania because it was huge match for The Undertaker, who was going to lose what everyone (including Taker) expected going in was going to be his last match. Yes, Reigns beat him. They then capitalised on this by making him fuck about with time killing Strowman rubbish for most of the next 16 months and do a bunch of jobs to Braun and Lesnar. No wonder Taker came back, who wants to be retired by a serial loser?

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

In 2018, they did a similar thing at Backlash, where Roman Reigns vs. Samoa Joe was the main event because... reasons.

Really? Reason was that Lesnar, who was still the Universal Champion, wasn’t there. They’d had a perfectly good chance for Reigns to beat him at Mania 34 after he’d been without a World title since MITB 2016, but they Lugered him again.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

Can barely remember who the actual WWE/Universal Champions were around that period. AJ and Shinsuke were kicking each other in the balls over the WWE title, right?

So you do remember in part. Let me help - the Universal Champion was Brock Lesnar.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

Never considered Roman to be twiddling his thumbs, or looking stupid or being a loser. He was often the main event guy while Brock took one of the titles hostage.

You don’t think endless feuds with Strowman and Corbin were meaningless time killers? Holding off for no other reason than just to hold off? Hell, the whole reason Finn Balor was planned to have the first Universal reign (planned for longer) despite it being the belt for Reigns’ show is they didn’t want to rush making him champion again. So it ended up being over 2 years. 2 fucking years!! Imagine John Cena going two years without a title in his peak years? Reigns wouldn’t have needed to main event in lieu of Lesnar if they’d put the belt on him any of the chances they’d had, but for whatever reason they thought “nearly man” was a better look for “face of the company” than “winner and champion.” They had two titles for Christs sake, if they wanted Lesnar to have an epic reign (thus him ending the Streak fading further and further into the past, to no ultimate benefit) they could have had Roman hold the other belt and force other men to pick up the slack, like that one where Ziggler vs Miz (lol) went on last. But they didn’t.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

Beats HHH at Mania, then has to drop the title because he violated the Wellness Policy. Not WWE's fault.

No, of course it isn’t. It’s WWEs fault they bottled it at Mania 31, made him look stupid at Survivor Series then made him look weak at the Rumble by having him “go the distance” but booking a lengthy break for him in the middle so nobody was going to give him sympathy for the “gruelling” experience to the point they had to call an audible and have Ambrose rather than him get thrown out last in the hope Triple H would get booed rather than cheered. And it was WWEs fault he had to wait 2 fucking years to get a title back round his waist.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

Then he wins the Universal Title in 2018. Lost it due to his leukemia. Not WWE's fault.

Of course it wasn’t. But why did his reign end up so short? 2 FUCKING YEARS.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

I guess his 2019 wasn't too great looking back at it.

Or 2015 (stupid), 2018 (loser), 2016 (stupid loser) or 2017 (a year in which he managed to beat The Undertaker and John Cena on PPVs, a fact undermined by the fact instead of immediately going after the belt after either of those wins… he was booked with Strowman again, who he lost to repeatedly on TV and on one PPV). And I’m not even touching on how often he wasted time chasing the US or Intercontinental titles or wasted time with Big Show, Rusev or Wyatt in completely inconsequential feuds that were transparently just something for him to do while still they hold off… the latter culminating in one of the most pointless Cell matches ever. At least in 2019 he didn’t have to lose to Lesnar again, but tellingly his first PPV feud for SmackDown with the aforementioned Kofi being kept primed for a Lesnar squash… was Reigns vs Jinder Mahal. More thumb twiddling.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

It sure as shit wasn't Kofi Kingston.

Kofi Kingston got hot around an impromptu insertion into the main event scene, which the company hadn’t expected or planned for, won the belt at the peak of his popularity in his first crack at a Mania, and had a couple of months with it. In terms of maximising the moment and potential as a main event player, they did a far better job than with Reigns for about 5 years, most of which he was killing time or losing to Lesnar repeatedly.

2 hours ago, Shane O' Mac Version 2 said:

My memory was a little hazy

Truth.

They had a plan. It was a good plan - Lesnar would end The Streak making him a huge baddie. He’d then crush Daniel Bryan for the belt off that momentum (which obviously ended up having to change to Cena) making him the ultimate end of game monster. Roman would win the title from him at Mania thus looking hard as nails and becoming the company figurehead AND champion. Great plan… they bottled it. Then they spent years figuring out where to go next and kept making it worse. I can’t imagine how he felt - Seth’s stated he only found out during Mania after he’d already lost to Orton, I’d love to know when Reigns found out. During his prime years prior to the cancer returning, Rollins, never earmarked as “the guy” won as many world titles as Reigns did, and during the time AJ was WWE champ for 12 months, Roman didn’t spend 1 day with the U belt. He was “the man” but he wasn’t.

This is where we simply agree to disagree that he’s been jerked around before the “Tribal Chief” era. 2 fucking years.

Edited March 26 by air_raid
So what is it?

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

I'll hold my hands up and say it was a misunderstanding from me, when you talked about WWE jerking Reigns around, I thought you meant his career as a whole, not specifically the title reigns. And I was for sure cloudy on some details.

But I think we need to agree to disagree because yeah I don't really think he was jerked around. Given suspensions, illnesses and his perpetual status as a top star, I don't think the fact that he wasn't carrying a belt around really harmed him. Finn Balor got hurt once and they never trusted him in a top spot again, Reigns had chance after chance and was always close to the title picture.

You think him pissing around with Strowman negated his wins over Undertaker and Cena, whereas I view it the complete opposite- those big wins are what stands out to me more. Appreciate all the details and the discussion but, I think we just view Reigns' career and the importances of titles to it under very different lenses.

Anyway, it's all a moot point as he's now the greatest champion to ever live as the Tribal Chief.

[Loki]

I don't think the WWE were deliberately jerking Reigns around, and I agree with @Shane O' Mac Version 2 that he was front and centre of the company through those years.

But this was the WWE in the depths of the final Vince McMahon years when his understanding of what wrestling crowds wanted had completely evaporated.  The company was incapable of changing direction or responding to crowds and ploughed on with Vince's "vision" regardless.  So they'd shine Reigns up for Taker but then within months have dulled him off again, and still not made a course correction.

They didn't Luger him because when they fucked Luger's push they let him go and tried something else.  Vince never lost faith in Reigns and things always were designed to revolve back to him.  It was a dark, boring time and I'm not surprised we've all tried to memory hole it.

[air_raid]

41 minutes ago, Loki said:

I don't think the WWE were deliberately jerking Reigns around, and I agree with @Shane O' Mac Version 2 that he was front and centre of the company through those years.

But this was the WWE in the depths of the final Vince McMahon years when his understanding of what wrestling crowds wanted had completely evaporated.  The company was incapable of changing direction or responding to crowds and ploughed on with Vince's "vision" regardless. 

Sure, it wasn't deliberate. But it was sure as hell misguided, most of the time. Hunter entering himself into the Rumble to screw with Roman and make himself the big bad for Roman to topple would have been a great idea - I only wish they'd have gone all the way and had him be #31 - but it was sloppily executed and works better if (a) Roman doesn't sit out half the match (b) you haven't made him look stupid with the Sheamus diversion because suddenly you haven't got another heel to bridge the gap between Survivors and the Rumble (c) the match at Mania had been better, mainly shorter.

One thing Survivor Series 15, Mania 34 and a few other times had in common was Vince being convinced "sympathy" was the way. A bloke you've previously referred to as a "juggernaut" doesn't need to be left flat on his back over and over again, and "sympathy" isn't the way to do it. You could cheat Steve Austin time and time again, he always got back up. Was it Linus that had as his avatar Reigns' face as he lay flat on his back surrounded by confetti at the end of that Survivor Series? It's a hell of a fade to black and fine spiritual successor to Lex celebrating a count-out surrounded by balloons. Chumps, the pair of them.

Edited March 26 by air_raid
It's as Ann as the nose on Plain's face.

[Statto]

They're still dumping on him on the app right now...

[LaGoosh]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:55 AM, air_raid said:

You don’t think endless feuds with Strowman and Corbin were meaningless time killers?

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but fuck me, that initial Reigns/Strowman feud was just some of the absolute best stuff. It got Strowman over as an absolute killer and it was the only time Roman was even close to being accepted as a babyface.  

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

1 hour ago, LaGoosh said:

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but fuck me, that initial Reigns/Strowman feud was just some of the absolute best stuff. It got Strowman over as an absolute killer and it was the only time Roman was even close to being accepted as a babyface.  

Who you kidding? Strowman was beloved and the fans were cheering as he smashed in Roman night in / night out. Didn't help that Roman had to get his SHIELD buddies to help him defend the belt against him like a heel.

At the time, I honestly thought they dropped the ball not making Roman the heel at that time.
 

Seriously... how is that not the start of heel champ Roman1?!?!

[air_raid]

1 hour ago, LaGoosh said:

Unrelated to the discussion at hand but fuck me, that initial Reigns/Strowman feud was just some of the absolute best stuff. It got Strowman over as an absolute killer and it was the only time Roman was even close to being accepted as a babyface.  

The problem for me was that Reigns beat him before Mania 33, then immediately after Mania, they carried on having a hundred more matches.

Braun is a great candidate for a similar level of mishandling in his first run, He got over pretty good on the way to Mania 34 as a killer as you say, and was planned for a a bit to go after Miz for the ICT but then they shuffled to Miz vs Rollins vs Balor and Strowman was left holding the baby. Well, holding the 10 year old. Despite having spent most of the last 12 months in the Universal title picture. They then turned him heel as briefcase-wielder (despite nobody wanting to boo him) only because he was opposing Reigns (who nobody wanted to cheer) and tagged him up with Drew and Dolph... then hastily had to turn him back when Reigns got sick, and job him unceremoniously to Lesnar. Come Mania 35, after spending most of ANOTHER 12 months in the title picture... he was in a forgotten battle royal. He had a big lads feud with Lashley and 5 weeks with the ICT before finally winning a World title only because Reigns was quarantining, beating not Lesnar but 54 year old Goldberg. Leaving only a spooky bollocks feud with The Fiend (during which he turned heel despite being programmed against a heel, with the title ending up on Reigns, who was also turning heel), a series where he had to let the MIGHTY Shane McMahon look competitive with him, and his release. Fucking hell, they missed the boat there.

[Loki]

43 minutes ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

Seriously... how is that not the start of heel champ Roman1?!?!

Three things watching that video:

- Finn Balor's hairline has mysteriously improved in the last few years hasn't it?

- what happened to Strowman?  I thought he re-signed with WWE?

- the Shield reunion is probably the biggest money-making angle that the WWE has left post-Rock return.  Fantasy booking, but... Reigns loses at WM, The Rock steals the Bloodline away from him.  Rock becomes champ, 6 months later Roman re-appears with those two, all dressed in the mercenary gear.  Blimey.

 

[BomberPat]

4 minutes ago, Loki said:

- what happened to Strowman?  I thought he re-signed with WWE?

He did, and they inexplicably thought the best use of him would be a tag team with Ricochet. He's out rehabbing from neck surgery, last I heard. I wouldn't be surprised to see him be a big "RAW after 'Mania" surprise return, if that's still a thing.

That run of Roman Reigns was a fascinating example of WWE booking being fundamentally broken through its own mistakes. They realised they couldn't brute force Roman Reigns into the top babyface spot, but also that they couldn't keep up the "you either love him or hate him!" thing that followed John Cena for most of his main event run because Reigns just wasn't good enough yet to really navigate that, so they seemed to look at what audiences do react to and settled on how Daniel Bryan got over, but rather than recognising that him getting over was because fans genuinely connected to and empathised with him and felt he was hard done by, they seem to think, "people get behind our babyfaces when we book them to lose all the time", so booked Reigns on a string of losses at the exact time he shouldn't have been losing at all. 

[air_raid]

I genuinely think that if Ambrose/Moxley were to return, he'd probably only do it for one match. He absolutely despised the environment for a good year before he left and even without Vince around, I don't think he'd be interested in running into any writers/runners/gophers that might have been showing him the notes and happen to still be there. Short of one massively promoted Shield six man in return for a huge cheque to make up for the $500 one he got for his last match there, and then a Hall Of Fame induction. Where he can go straight from his taxi to the stage, say a few words, then head straight back out again.

I know Hunter's been a bit of a charmer if he could bury the hatchet with Warrior, Punk et al but.... wow, was that a bridge burned.

[LaGoosh]

Yeah I can't personally see Mox going back to WWE. He doesn't have any huge personal issues like others have but he just seems to hate the environment and it doesn't seem to mesh with his vision of what wrestling should be or what he wants to do with his career - namely complete creative freedom. He signed a long term deal with AEW about a year or so ago anyway. If his body is still holding up by the time his AEW contract finishes then who knows but he doesn't seem motivated by that big pay day - he does deathmatches for GCW for fun!

[air_raid]

10 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Yeah I can't personally see Mox going back to WWE. He doesn't have any huge personal issues like others have but he just seems to hate the environment and it doesn't seem to mesh with his vision of what wrestling should be or what he wants to do with his career - namely complete creative freedom.

I'm on the fence as to whether or not it's just creative or if he took a lot of it personally. This tells it better than any way I could rephrase it ;

On 3/21/2024 at 5:21 PM, air_raid said:

In January he'd declared he was seeing out his contract expiring 30th April and he wasn't renewing ; they offered him an improved deal, but he didn't even look at it, later saying that he wouldn't have signed for $10 million. To put it mildly, he's been upset with the creative direction of his character and "hokey" material, mentioning much later on Talk Is Jericho scripts featuring "big goofy words that made no sense" "told no stories" and "didn’t get any characters over" and stating that WWE was "taking wrestling away from him". He knew during his injury rehab in July 2018 that he was leaving at the end of his deal but didn't want to force his way out early out of not wanting to be seen to be "not business" or harm Renee, who was still going to be working there. He's burned out - mental and emotional exhaustion after years of fighting Vince's "stupid" ideas, the peak being a November 2018 promo you can still see on WWEs official YouTube subtitled "The Lunatic Fringe receives multiple injections to protect himself from the WWE Universe" which may have been born out of his (very real) experience with MRSA during his time off injured that year. Because everyone loves their serious infections made into entertainment, right? This was the segment where he knew his character was dead, and he was 100% going to leave. They scripted a line for him to reference Roman Reigns' (very real) leukaemia but understandably, he refused. On top, he's been subjected to behaviours such as him asking writers to change promos that he didn't feel right for his character, only for Vince to put back in everything he'd asked to be removed, and being passed notes by writers from Vince himself such as “Dean needs to understand why he needs to insult the audience” and “Dean needs to read his promos verbatim and not try to rewrite them.” JR always says everything comes down to cash or creative, and pissed off beyond recovery on his creative and not caring about the cash, Deano makes good on his promises and is finished after The Shield's Final Chapter - which he'll later reveal, he was paid $500 for, which is the company minimum. I think it's safe to say that this was a bridge well and truly burned from both sides.

 

[LaGoosh]

I remember from Jericho's podcast a bit where Mox described a promo Vince wrote for him where he described riding to the arena backwards on a bicycle and other various hijinx and when Mox asked why he would say that Vince said "because you're wacky Dean Ambrose, people are gonna' love it! and Mox responded with "Vince, this is what a stupid person does. Only someone stupid would do any of these things. Why would anyone want to cheer someone so stupid?".

I wish someone would write a book with nothing but mad and terrible Vince creative story. What a lunatic (and rapist).

[tiger_rick]

I like Mox a lot. Great worker and promo, obviously, but his is one of the few new wrestling books I've read and he seems like a good guy who worked hard it, is just trying to have the time of his life in what he's doing and is generally winning at it, so I liked him even more. 

They all go back though, except Randy Savage. There's no way he doesn't - eventually. He'd never have gone back to the creative environment before but I'm absolutely sure that in another year or two, it will be unrecognisable from that POV and they'll throw money at him. Punk went back. He was the one I really thought never would. After that, I'd never give less than a 75% chance of anyone going back, except Mel Phillips and George Zahorian.