andrew "the ref" coyne Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 Unpopular opinion: the ending to Mania 17 with Austin joining McMahon made no fucking sense and they did a crap job justifying it after the PPV. I get it... Austin wants to win the belt and the fear of The Rock eclipsing him certainly justified him beating him half to death with a steel chair before getting the pin. But he didn't NEED Vince help to do it, so him joining Vince made no sense. It didn't benefit him in anyway. Plus when Vince Mcmahon DID convince him to join forces, Austin didn't do enough to sell out like Vince wanted him to do back in 97. In mind my mind what would of made more sense is: - Austin is desperate to win and as a result of The Rock showing great perseverance at Mania, he loses his mind and beats the shit out of him with a steel chair. This is where having Debra at ringside could of work really well, because you could of had her trying to calm her husband down and preventing her beating the shit out of her "client", only for Austin to ignore her and pound the crap out of The Rock with a chair before taking the belt. - Next night on Raw, Austin comes out and explains that he never did any of this for the cheers or admiration. He's Stone Cold, the baddest son of a bitch etc etc. He never changed from being the rattlesnake he always said he was. Just because the fans embranced him, dosen't mean he is obligated to be their role model. - Eventually The Rock comes back for a rematch at the next PPV (he barely gets medical clearance in time for the PPV). The angle is "can Austin actually beat The Rock clean." During the run up, we also see Vince Mcmahon once again trying to get Austin to become his corporate puppet "the easy way, or the hard way." - At the PPV The Rock is about to win. But McMahon and some corporate underlings attack The Rock during a ref bump. Austin is confused and conflicted, but ultimately uses the distraction to hit a stunner and win the match. THEN McMahon offers the hand... and Austin shakes it. - The next night on Raw, McMahon talks about accomplishing the impossible, and introduces us to "the new and improved" Stone Cold Steve Austin, and a corporate suit wearing Steve Austin comes to the ring. We literally see a repeat of the whole "take a photo with me Vince" angle from 1997, but this time there is no swerve. Austin truly is a corporate puppet. - Austin changes his promo styles, does polite site down interviews and endorses Vince Mcmahon etc etc. However on the surface you see a slight hint of self disgust. - Austin is lowkey disgusted with himself. And eventually THIS is why he joins WCW. Because he secretly hates Vince Mcmahon, he secretly hates the WWE machine, and secretly hates the WWE fans. So he's going to burn the whole fucking lot to the ground and leads WCW to a glorious era, with him as it's champion. I expect a lot of disagreement, but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awards Moderator HarmonicGenerator Posted August 7, 2020 Awards Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2020 8 hours ago, air_raid said: But vs Shane at Mania 17 pisses on both. This is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 7 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said: Unpopular opinion: the ending to Mania 17 with Austin joining McMahon made no fucking sense and they did a crap job justifying it after the PPV. I expect a lot of disagreement, but there you go. I'd disagree insofar as it being an unpopular opinion! It was shat on then and it's shat on now. The only acclaim it ever gets is Austin's own TV performances and maybe the fact that the rattlesnake character had nowhere else to go, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinc Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 8 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said: But he didn't NEED Vince help to do it, so him joining Vince made no sense. It didn't benefit him in anyway. Its true, but I think its implied that Austin knows he'll get preferential treatment as champion with Vince as an ally. It doesn't take too much of a leap to understand his reasons. Having watched the four TVs straight after Mania X7 recently, they really don't explain why Vince was bothered about aligning with Austin. He doesn't seem to really get anything out of the deal other than trolling the audience and getting to bully JR. So I do like your fantasy booking above in that it would much better explain why Vince was bothering. Its also worth a note that it was always kind of implied that the reason Vince didn't just fire Austin over the years was that he couldn't risk his biggest drawing card going to WCW. With WCW closed the week of Mania X7 they could maybe have added that to the story. Vince is now the only game in town and so it doesn't make sense for Austin to be the rebel he used to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 Hating on Austin's heel turn is about as 'unpopular' as someone coming in here and saying Kevin Nash is awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam O'Rourke Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 8 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said: Unpopular opinion: the ending to Mania 17 with Austin joining McMahon made no fucking sense and they did a crap job justifying it after the PPV. I get it... Austin wants to win the belt and the fear of The Rock eclipsing him certainly justified him beating him half to death with a steel chair before getting the pin. But he didn't NEED Vince help to do it, so him joining Vince made no sense. It didn't benefit him in anyway. Plus when Vince Mcmahon DID convince him to join forces, Austin didn't do enough to sell out like Vince wanted him to do back in 97. In mind my mind what would of made more sense is: - Austin is desperate to win and as a result of The Rock showing great perseverance at Mania, he loses his mind and beats the shit out of him with a steel chair. This is where having Debra at ringside could of work really well, because you could of had her trying to calm her husband down and preventing her beating the shit out of her "client", only for Austin to ignore her and pound the crap out of The Rock with a chair before taking the belt. - Next night on Raw, Austin comes out and explains that he never did any of this for the cheers or admiration. He's Stone Cold, the baddest son of a bitch etc etc. He never changed from being the rattlesnake he always said he was. Just because the fans embranced him, dosen't mean he is obligated to be their role model. - Eventually The Rock comes back for a rematch at the next PPV (he barely gets medical clearance in time for the PPV). The angle is "can Austin actually beat The Rock clean." During the run up, we also see Vince Mcmahon once again trying to get Austin to become his corporate puppet "the easy way, or the hard way." - At the PPV The Rock is about to win. But McMahon and some corporate underlings attack The Rock during a ref bump. Austin is confused and conflicted, but ultimately uses the distraction to hit a stunner and win the match. THEN McMahon offers the hand... and Austin shakes it. - The next night on Raw, McMahon talks about accomplishing the impossible, and introduces us to "the new and improved" Stone Cold Steve Austin, and a corporate suit wearing Steve Austin comes to the ring. We literally see a repeat of the whole "take a photo with me Vince" angle from 1997, but this time there is no swerve. Austin truly is a corporate puppet. - Austin changes his promo styles, does polite site down interviews and endorses Vince Mcmahon etc etc. However on the surface you see a slight hint of self disgust. - Austin is lowkey disgusted with himself. And eventually THIS is why he joins WCW. Because he secretly hates Vince Mcmahon, he secretly hates the WWE machine, and secretly hates the WWE fans. So he's going to burn the whole fucking lot to the ground and leads WCW to a glorious era, with him as it's champion. I expect a lot of disagreement, but there you go. Well, you tried, and there is some intrigue there, but unfortunately I just don't think there is a way for it to land. Either turn. Its ultimately inorganic. Austin doing the 180 takes away what makes him what he is and what drew. I wouldn't say it was an unpopular take, everybody at the time thought the execution and explanation (or lack of) sucked balls. And it did. Which really should have told them something. If they can't come up for a good reason to justify doing it, you probably shouldn't do it. Its not like Hogan who was being booed for a year before he turned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted August 7, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) I’ll be honest, at the time I thought it made perfect sense as Austin as top face had been supplanted by The Rock and had lost a step since the injury so turning him heel and running hard with Rocky as THE babyface and him as a massive top heel sounded great instead of forcing crowds to choose between them or either wasting time retreading a run with HHH for either. They’d never ran the feud with the roles reversed so not knowing Rock would hardly be a feature of the Austin heel run, I thought it would be fun moving forward. I was wrong, obviously. Edited August 7, 2020 by air_raid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, air_raid said: I’ll be honest, at the time I thought it made perfect sense as Austin as top face had been supplanted by The Rock and had lost a step since the injury so turning him heel and running hard with Rocky as THE babyface and him as a massive top heel sounded great instead of forcing crowds to choose between them or either wasting time retreading a run with HHH for either. They’d never ran the feud with the roles reversed so not knowing Rock would hardly be a feature of the Austin heel run, I thought it would be fun moving forward. I was wrong, obviously. Do you think the Vince part was the problem though? I think that's where the whole thing comes unstuck from a logic standpoint - if we're insisting on overthinking everything anyway. Obviously someone just sat down and thought "hey what's the biggest shock we could give anyone?" and there we were. It was never a long term booking decision at all. I feel like Austin as a heel wouldn't have necessarily been too bad if they'd approached it a little differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted August 7, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2020 (edited) I always thought Austin siding with Vince made sense, with the way he played the character - Austin was increasingly paranoid, and obsessed with getting the title back, and keeping it, by any means necessary. He'd told us not to trust anyone, and it turned out that stretched to include not trusting him either. Vince, for his part, had always wanted Austin on-side - that's what triggered their feud in the first place; he didn't want Steve Austin gone right away, he wanted him to tow the company line and play ball. Vince would have wanted nothing more than to have Stone Cold in his corner, rather than against him, and history has shown - in and out of kayfabe - that Vince was prepared to bury the hatchet with people if it benefited him personally. The problem is the same as with calls more recently for Cena or Reigns to turn heel, there was just nobody waiting in the wings to step up and take the top babyface spot left behind by Austin. I assume they thought business would be strong enough regardless that he could muddle through against Undertaker, Kane, Jericho and Benoit, get the eventual Triple H feud out of the way, and then make big money against a returning Rock later in the year. That Austin was up against people who couldn't hold up their end of the bargain in the top spot was the problem, and then the Invasion coming along and the choice to reposition him as a top heel in The Alliance rather than just recognising that the WCW buy-out was such a game-changer that they'd have been better off just switching him back to babyface, is what killed it. The logical run was a feud with Triple H that never happened after Triple H got hurt, and then a return match with The Rock that never really happened even though they were on the opposite sides of the WWF/WCW feud, because when Rock returned they'd shifted focus away from "he got taken out by Stone Cold and Triple H and wants revenge" and just to "he's back to help the WWF against WCW". Long story short - you don't turn your top babyface heel when you don't have another top babyface prepared to take their spot. Edited August 7, 2020 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinc Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 Hasn't it been reported over the years that they thought they'd have a returning Shawn Michaels to step into the top babyface spot in Rock's absence, but that he showed up pilled off his nut in the weeks before X7 and so his comeback was called off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted August 7, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted August 7, 2020 21 minutes ago, Pinc said: Hasn't it been reported over the years that they thought they'd have a returning Shawn Michaels to step into the top babyface spot in Rock's absence, but that he showed up pilled off his nut in the weeks before X7 and so his comeback was called off? This happened according to Chris Jericho in his book, whether or not it was be to be top baby is a different question. Every time I’ve read anything about any time they were trying to get him back or he was considering it, in 99, 2001 or whenever, the point always seemed to be “to feud with HHH.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Maestro Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 I like Dolph Ziggler. I know that's not something to admit on here and he is perennial loser but I think he's great. I don't keep up with today's product like I used to and tend to watch bits and bobs but I always enjoy his work. He suffers from just being there and if he had taken time off for a prolonged period then would be held in higher regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Lawrence Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 The Hitman always underplays his role in interviews in The Hart Foundation, he carried Jim at times. His cocky greasball charachter was the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chasingamymatt Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 As god aweful and boring and out of touch that WWF is in 1995 - early 1996 its more fun and an easier watch than WWF 1999 is. After Rock/Austin at Mania and Backlash the TV, title picture, mid-card fueds and stories are trash. This continues until Armageddon at the end of the year. KOTR/Fully Loaded/Summerlam/Unforgiven/No Mercy/SS have about 5 decent matches between them and the Corporate Ministry was fooking horrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted August 9, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted August 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, Chasingamymatt said: As god aweful and boring and out of touch that WWF is in 1995 - early 1996 its more fun and an easier watch than WWF 1999 is. After Rock/Austin at Mania and Backlash the TV, title picture, mid-card fueds and stories are trash. This continues until Armageddon at the end of the year. KOTR/Fully Loaded/Summerlam/Unforgiven/No Mercy/SS have about 5 decent matches between them and the Corporate Ministry was fooking horrible. I dunno, there's some pretty fun stuff during that period. The Kane/X Pac tag team, the Test vs Shane angle, D'lo Browns short but great singles run, Jericho debut, Crash debut, Edge, Christian and the Hardys starting to break out, and The Rock was gold most weeks. Plus they had started to faze out most the sleazy sex stuff that was prominent in 98. Match wise, like most of 98-99, there wasn't much to rave about but I watched this period back last year and found it to be easy, enjoyable viewing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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