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Monkee

Star Wars Thread - Spoilers, yo.

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I finally went to see this last night and still trying to decide whether I liked it or not. There was just so much going on story-wise that I’m still digesting the events.

I’ll jump on the hate for Super-Leia. Just a bit odd to be blown into outer space, just to then zoom towards the remaining ship like she was being reeled in on a fishing line. I don’t know if it’s knowing Carrie Fisher is dead but felt Leia could have been left there.

On the topic of on-screen death, also disappointed Snoke was offed without really revealing who he was, how he came to be, explaining his disfigurement etc. I hope—like the Luke/Ren situation—it’s fleshed out a bit in the next film, as Snoke was one those unanswered mysteries set up in The Force Awakens

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15 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

...also disappointed Snoke was offed without really revealing who he was, how he came to be, explaining his disfigurement etc.

I think it's already been said in this thread, but how much did we know of the Emperor from film appearances pre-prequels?  I'm hitching up to the not everyone needs a massive backstory train.

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7 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

I think it's already been said in this thread, but how much did we know of the Emperor from film appearances pre-prequels?

But by the same token, I wasn’t around in the late ‘70s/early ‘80s, so not sure what the feeling was.

I just feel as though he was an interesting character and a bit let down other main characters get a backstory and not him. 

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42 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

I finally went to see this last night and still trying to decide whether I liked it or not.

I don't understand this. Either you enjoyed it or you didn't. I was able to form an opinion the moment the film finished.

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Just now, PunkStep said:

I don't understand this. Either you enjoyed it or you didn't. I was able to form an opinion the moment the film finished.

I don’t know. I didn’t leave feeling “That was a good film” but I didn’t leave hating it either. I just think because it’s so full-on story for the entire duration it’s a bit of a chore to get through and just left me feeling “meh”. 

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1 hour ago, Your Fight Site said:

But by the same token, I wasn’t around in the late ‘70s/early ‘80s, so not sure what the feeling was.

I just feel as though he was an interesting character and a bit let down other main characters get a backstory and not him. 

I think, more importantly, the Emperor's death was a million times better. The issue with the death of Snoke was it made him feel like such a nothing, when TFA teased him as something mightier.

I've typed this a few times, but it's similar to how I felt about Bane's finale in TDKR. All the build for that. I despise when they do a good job of building a villain and the end isn't up to it.

Edited by ColinBollocks
On the blower.

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I don't really see the problem with Snoke. It seems to me that he was never supposed to be the Big Bad; he was just the vehicle to make sure Kylo Ren became it. They couldn't start off the new films with Ren as leader of the First Order, because that would mean he was too far gone, and it wouldn't be possible to do the whole internal conflict angle with him. Additionally, they had to have Snoke as an external influence, because Ben Solo turning by himself would basically be saying he was evil from the core, needing no prompting from anyone else.

Besides, with all the stuff we've seen about the Sith and the Dark Side, just how interesting could he have been? Force lightning, nasty personality, pursuit of corrupting power - we've seen it all before. In a sense, he was effectively a palette swap of Palpatine.

Overall, it feels like the whole Rey/Ren/Skywalker arc is meant to be reflecting the Luke/Obi-Wan/Anakin arc; the idea that history is repeating, that Luke made the same mistakes in his tutelage of Ren and his fear of the Dark Side's influence on him that Obi-Wan did with Anakin/Vader. Snoke is merely a means to an end, the real monster is supposed to be Ren.

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32 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

I think, more importantly, the Emperor's death was a million times better. The issue with the death of Snoke was it made him feel like such a nothing, when TFA teased him as something mightier.

I've typed this a few times, but it's similar to how I felt about Bane's finale in TDKR. All the build for that. I despise when they do a good job of building a villain and the end isn't up to it.

The struggle with Vader and the Emperor was arguably better, but a Bane death?  Bane was jobbed out, Snoke got screwed when he thought he was on top by HBKylo.  Snoke's in the throes of a full on "I am invincible, I cannot be betrayed, I can see inside Kylo's mind, I will be the biggest deal in the galaxy" rant and Kylo fucks him up.  He does betray him, thus cementing Kylo as the baddest man on the planet (in the galaxy).  Unless Snoke's supplanted then Ren is seen as a manipulated puppet.  Turns out that with Snoke out of the way he still wants to fuck shit up.  He is the monster now, Snoke's irrelevant.

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1 hour ago, ColinBollocks said:

I think, more importantly, the Emperor's death was a million times better. The issue with the death of Snoke was it made him feel like such a nothing, when TFA teased him as something mightier.

I've typed this a few times, but it's similar to how I felt about Bane's finale in TDKR. All the build for that. I despise when they do a good job of building a villain and the end isn't up to it.

Did they do a good job building Snoke as a villain though? We don’t really see him do all that much that’s villainous. He’s in charge of the First Order, and they’re evil, and he had some part in turning Ben (though Luke’s failure could have been just as much of an influence) but other than that? He issued instructions as a hologram and there’s some vague dark sidey stuff but not all that much. I’d argue most of his build was fan theorising between films. 

Edited by HarmonicGenerator

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19 hours ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Did they do a good job building Snoke as a villain though? We don’t really see him do all that much that’s villainous. He’s in charge of the First Order, and they’re evil, and he had some part in turning Ben (though Luke’s failure could have been just as much of an influence) but other than that? He issued instructions as a hologram and there’s some vague dark sidey stuff but not all that much. I’d argue most of his build was fan theorising between films. 

I think Snoke's unique disfigured appearance suggested that there was perhaps a more interesting backstory to be told. That fuelled the fan theories and led to many wondering whether he was actually somebody we'd seen in the franchise before. This is what happens with films like these now, you get this superfan community analysing every plot detail and trying to fill in every blank for themselves. Then they get upset when the real stories are told and either they haven't been proved to be right, or the details they thought were important were just glossed over by the new director.

In some ways, it's fair enough for fans to get upset about stuff like this, because they care about this universe. The details are important to them. However, you can't have the feature films running over three hours, so they have to focus on telling the key stories. The expanded universe exists to satisfy the superfans' demand for backstories and side plots.

That's why I had no issue with the way they dealt with Snoke in this film, his death was a major event in Kylo's character development. Snoke had served his purpose as a character.

Plus he just looked like a shit Voldemort anyway.

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19 hours ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

Did they do a good job building Snoke as a villain though? We don’t really see him do all that much that’s villainous. He’s in charge of the First Order, and they’re evil, and he had some part in turning Ben (though Luke’s failure could have been just as much of an influence) but other than that? He issued instructions as a hologram and there’s some vague dark sidey stuff but not all that much. I’d argue most of his build was fan theorising between films. 

I think the fact a lot of people were interested in his story suggests as much. They painted him as this shadowy figure, a new unknown super evil, which created intrigue, After all he was the master training Kylo to be new Vader - it suggests a powerful villain.

Edited by ColinBollocks

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To be fair a lot of the fans that were upset by that were also upset that they killed off Admiral Ackbar- who in the grand scheme of things is a very minor character. So I'm not so sure the reaction is a testament to him being built up as this almighty force. I don't think he was built up much at all and was essentially fodder to help build Kylo Ren even more. And to be honest I'm glad- he came across as a Palpatine reboot.

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The other criticism I've read about Snoke and the First Order is that they don't really show how they're evil. They shouldn't really need to do all that much, they're the Empire under a new name; we know they're evil, we don't need to see lots of atrocities. However, stealing babies for their military, and destroying star systems using Starkiller should be reminder cromulent enough, and a satisfactory intro for first-time SW viewers. Sure, Snoke isn’t personally doing it, but the fact he's very much in charge of this organisation should be sufficient, surely?                        

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