Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 I'm wary about comparisons to the rise of Hitler in general, because history doesn't repeat itself - Trump's election didn't come off the back of the same kind of weakened state power that Germany was struggling through in the interwar years, he wasn't one of a number of attempted political takeovers, and in general there aren't all that many comparisons. The comparison to the Kristallnacht struck me as distasteful, and largely inaccurate - the Kristallnacht was an attack on an oppressed minority, and on private individuals, not on the machinery of government. In that respect, I would agree that the Beer Hall Putsch is a far more fitting comparison if comparison is needed. That said, it's good to see people like Arnie speaking up on this because the way we're taught about World War 2 in either the UK or the US doesn't really deal with the aftermath at all, and too many people think of it as essentially ancient history. It's vital that people talk of the reality of living in "post-fascist" states, and of what happens when you still allow those culpable during fascist governments to remain part of the infrastructure of the state. There was a BBC4 documentary on Krautrock, in which one of the members of Faust said that the motivation for creating a whole new genre of music was that their music teachers had been Nazis - they couldn't just imprison all the teachers, the country still had to function. The same was true across the civil service, and across government, in West Germany.  Ultimately, anyone who thought Trump getting voted out would be the end of "Trumpism" was either naïve or deluded. I'm beginning to think that it was the start of whatever comes next. I fully expect a prolonged period of far-right agitation and terrorism for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 27 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Ultimately, anyone who thought Trump getting voted out would be the end of "Trumpism" was either naïve or deluded. I'm beginning to think that it was the start of whatever comes next. I fully expect a prolonged period of far-right agitation and terrorism for the foreseeable future. I agree to a point. I think that the actions of the past week has finally spooked the mainstream American right to a degree that they'll do whatever it takes to stop Trump from standing again in 2024 (by any means necessary). But leaving Trump supporters politically homeless, its entirely feasible that such the gaping hole will result in the end of the two party state and a new Trump-led party becoming a minority but significant force in US politics for the foreseeable. By 2024 its more than possible the election could be fought by a left, centre right and right wing parties (or in a European context, centrist, right and extreme right). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 I think that's why there are people so keen to see him impeached, to stop him running in the future. I definitely see a TRUMP/MAGA party running next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 5 minutes ago, garynysmon said: I agree to a point. I think that the actions of the past week has finally spooked the mainstream American right to a degree that they'll do whatever it takes to stop Trump from standing again in 2024 (by any means necessary). The problem there is that they may not necessarily know how to, or are unwilling to reflect. When you look at the rises of various far-right/fascist governments, so many of them were enabled by "centrist" or "left of centre"Â parties who were completely unwilling to accept that they had failed to address real problems, or that their failure was tied to their ideological approach. Many of these populist right-wing movements are populated by people who feel let down by parties that claimed to represent their interests. Unless the Democratic Party realise that they too were complicit in the creation of a massive global economic meltdown that damaged the lives of many of the US' working-class and middle-class citizens, recognise that this problem was decades in the making, and that Trumpism is a symptom, not a cause, of the US' malaise, nothing will change and the cycle will continue. As they've never really been committed to changing things at a truly meaningful and fundamental level, because broadly they're in agreement with the Republicans as to how the US should be structured economically, I don't see the far-right/alt-right/new right being blunted any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ReturnOfTheMack Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 51 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: I think that's why there are people so keen to see him impeached, to stop him running in the future. I definitely see a TRUMP/MAGA party running next time. Will that split the GOP vote, keeping both MAGA and GOP out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 14 minutes ago, ReturnOfTheMack said: Will that split the GOP vote, keeping both MAGA and GOP out? In theory it could. Of course it all depends on how well Joe Biden does between now and November 2024*, but even if the Republicans lost say 1 in 5 votes from what they got in this recent election to a MAGA party candidate, fighting amongst themselves could only more distance between them and how ever many vote Democrate. *Assuming he doesn’t snuff it beforehand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 hour ago, tiger_rick said: I think that's why there are people so keen to see him impeached, to stop him running in the future. I definitely see a TRUMP/MAGA party running next time. I think the danger has always been that whatever comes after Trump from the "MAGA" base could be far worse, more embedded in the far-right and the QAnon conspiracy nonsense. The question comes down to whether support for Trump has been purely a cult of personality, or whether it's a political movement that lives beyond him. Given how many people have thrown aside Fox News, and former Trump loyalists, the moment they speak out against him, maybe it is just Trump, and all of this will fall back into the lunatic fringe where it belongs, and the worst of the Republican Party will continue to agitate from the sidelines but largely still just get behind whichever candidates the GOP choose to put forward. That's really the best case scenario, but I don't see it. Trump has moved the acceptable face of the Republican Party further to the right, so that someone to the right of say, John McCain or Mitt Romney, can easily be presented as a centrist, acceptable candidate just by being "better" than Donald Trump. He's also revealed a genuine appetite for far-right politics in America that's always been there, but generally not openly indulged on a national scale. If there's one thing the right wing in America don't like, it's the feeling of having something they feel they're owed taken from them. "Don't take our guns", "we won't be replaced", white supremacy, it's all about the fear of losing their stranglehold on American culture. Now they've had a taste of being pandered to, they're not just going to accept it and go away. A country that can frame Joe Biden, the most mediocre blank slate politician imaginable, as a dangerous Communist even while he openly courts Republican support, is a country that still has a serious appetite for far-right leadership and isn't going to just go away quietly. A lot of my friends are convinced that we'll see a split in the Republican Party and that the vote will be split in such a way to effectively guarantee Democrat governance for years to come. But I'm not so confident. It's an idea that's dependent on the same hopes for "moderate Republicans" to do the right thing that people clung to since Trump got the nomination, and those Good Republicans have been pretty fucking quiet these past four years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 The problem with a Trump Party for me is who funds it? Trump's fucked financially and no one else is going to touch it. It'll be reliant on donations from supporters and/or dodgy donations from abroad. I don't see that being close to enough to crack the two party system, especially if major companies refuse to air their adverts, host their websites, collect donations, etc. All of which seems very likely. Corporate America wants fuck all to do with this revolution shit. The best case scenario for them politically is being America's answer to the Brexit Party. Charging "Patriots" $50 each to join protests, etc. The real problem is outside of politics. We're definitely going to see more terror attacks, or at least attempts at them. This is reality for a lot of these people. They aren't simply going to go away. They are going to splinter though because it's going to be much much harder for them to communicate. Attacks will also make it less likely for them to be accepted as a legitimate political force. Fuck knows how it actually ends though. I can't see anything less than a full confession from Trump doing it and, even then, I'm sure they will come up with ways to keep the lie going. I don't buy the comparisons to the end of the Weimar Republic though. Germany was on it's arse after World War One and that played a massive part in the Nazi's rise. While America is far from perfect, it's nowhere near that level. The Democrats DO need to spend the next four years productively though. They've got no excuses now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) I think getting funding would be the easiest part. Trump's supporters love throwing him cash and a lot of them are wealthy (Chris Jericho would probably chuck him 20 grand). And he's got the Evangelists behind him and they have a lot of money to throw around. He will never crack the two party system, but he will make enough cash to keep himself out of prison and have enough support that he'll still have a lot of influence on the Republican party because if he takes his base with him that's a huge loss of votes for the Republicans. Throw in speaking events, books and some kind of media company and he will be able to pay off his debts and stay out of prison. Edited January 11, 2021 by LaGoosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 The revolution can certainly count on a solid $1000 from the American tight arse himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members stumobir Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 1 minute ago, Gay as FOOK said: The revolution can certainly count on a solid $1000 from the American tight arse himself. After it’s been laundered at least a dozen times and we find out that it actually came from the tip jars at Turnberry.  I don’t see him having any issues in raising funds, mainly because he won’t care where that money comes from and there is a vested interest in keeping America fucked. It’ll be interesting to see if he launches his own media platforms, it’ll be his only way of staying relevant but could also be a financial clusterfuck as I don’t see how they could ever make any advertising revenue, I’m sure it won’t stop his ego from convincing him to give a go though, provided someone else picks up the tab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021  6 minutes ago, Gay as FOOK said: The revolution can certainly count on a solid $1000 from the American tight arse himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 I’ve always thought they’d never break from the GOP but the way Ya’ll Qaeda have been slagging off republicans as well makes me think they might. It’s like the militia of the Tea Party. Scary stuff, but I’m hoping the all become ultra isolationist and we don’t have to bother hearing from ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted January 11, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted January 11, 2021 55 minutes ago, LaGoosh said: I think getting funding would be the easiest part. Trump's supporters love throwing him cash and a lot of them are wealthy (Chris Jericho would probably chuck him 20 grand). And he's got the Evangelists behind him and they have a lot of money to throw around. He will never crack the two party system, but he will make enough cash to keep himself out of prison and have enough support that he'll still have a lot of influence on the Republican party because if he takes his base with him that's a huge loss of votes for the Republicans. Throw in speaking events, books and some kind of media company and he will be able to pay off his debts and stay out of prison. Trump went on the beg the day after Biden was declared the winner. This headline gives you an idea of what to expect https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-legal-effort-fundraising-recount-election-2024-b1766547.html and this was to help him overturn the result. If he wanted to start a new party, they would happily pay him money again. I reckon if he was serious though, he would probably get Eric or Trump Jr to be the nominee with him as VP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted January 11, 2021 Moderators Share Posted January 11, 2021 23 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: I’ve always thought they’d never break from the GOP but the way Ya’ll Qaeda have been slagging off republicans as well makes me think they might. It’s like the militia of the Tea Party. Scary stuff, but I’m hoping the all become ultra isolationist and we don’t have to bother hearing from ever again. This could be the comeback Glenn Beck's been waiting for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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