SuperBacon Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Mikhail Gorbachev, aged 91. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/30/mikhail-gorbachev-dies-soviet-leader-92 I thought he was already dead to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westlondonmist Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Just read that, I imagine reaction will be mixed with many Russians blaming him for the collapse of the Soviet Union but I'm sure plenty hold him in high regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars85 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 57 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: Mikhail Gorbachev, aged 91. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/30/mikhail-gorbachev-dies-soviet-leader-92 I thought he was already dead to be honest. Pime example of the Gorbachev effect. I'm sure it used to be called something else though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted August 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 31, 2022 12 hours ago, westlondonmist said: Just read that, I imagine reaction will be mixed with many Russians blaming him for the collapse of the Soviet Union but I'm sure plenty hold him in high regard. He was much more liked and respected outside of Russia than within; not just for the collapse of the USSR and heightened nationalism in former Soviet countries, but he was largely blamed for a lot of the economic crises and fall in living standards that came after him, though I'm not really sure how fair it would be to blame that on him. There was a poll that had him ranked as the least popular Russian leader of the last hundred years, which is some fucking list to choose from. I think he was inarguably one of the most significant statesmen of the last century, yet in spite of that his legacy is largely in the failures of every political project he embarked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: I think he was inarguably one of the most significant statesmen of the last century, yet in spite of that his legacy is largely in the failures of every political project he embarked on. His greatest achievements are now often seen as miscalculations but I don't think he's wholly to blame for that in the post Soviet era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westlondonmist Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 3 hours ago, BomberPat said: He was much more liked and respected outside of Russia than within; not just for the collapse of the USSR and heightened nationalism in former Soviet countries, but he was largely blamed for a lot of the economic crises and fall in living standards that came after him, though I'm not really sure how fair it would be to blame that on him. There was a poll that had him ranked as the least popular Russian leader of the last hundred years, which is some fucking list to choose from. I think he was inarguably one of the most significant statesmen of the last century, yet in spite of that his legacy is largely in the failures of every political project he embarked on. Quite sad that a man who wanted to give people more political freedom is thought of as the worst leader, but there people would rather have an empire I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted August 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, westlondonmist said: Quite sad that a man who wanted to give people more political freedom is thought of as the worst leader, but there people would rather have an empire I suppose. For a lot of people, political freedom isn't the be-all and end-all, though - freedom from starvation, poverty, lack of education are also important to the ordinary person, and, though the Soviet system had a lot of big problems, the average Russian got free housing, education, and access to food most times. Also, I would imagine that a lot of these became a lot more appealing in hindsight after that drunken car-crash Boris Yeltsin fucked everything. It's not surprising Putin has enjoyed the power he's had over the past twenty years: post-USSR Russia ended up a joke, humiliated by the West, with people going unpaid and all their military equipment being sold off to terrorist organisations. A big part of why America doesn't change politically is because their people believe they have the best and most powerful country in the world, even with their insane gun culture, alarmist news, terrible food standards, and crippling healthcare system. Turkey continually votes for Recep Erdogan because he keeps behaving like he's standing up for Turks' dignity and place on the world stage, even talking about bringing back the Ottoman Empire. Putin keeps getting voted back in because he does the whole strongman act, like he's promising Russians he'll bring back the days of Soviet global power (even though he's not actually re-establishing the communist or socialist systems). It's also how Trump got where he did. Like Cicero said, as long as you ensure the people have "bread and circuses", i.e. keep them fed and entertained, you'll keep power. Gorbachev's and Yeltsin's times in power are seen as when the USSR/CIS/Russian Federation lost that. Edited August 31, 2022 by Carbomb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Some really lovely tributes coming in. It's what he would've wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Some Guy Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Carbomb said: Putin keeps getting voted back in because he Imprisons or kills any critics of his regime and operates within a system that bears only the slightest resemblance to democracy anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted August 31, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted August 31, 2022 Just now, Just Some Guy said: Imprisons or kills any critics of his regime and operates within a system that bears only the slightest resemblance to democracy anyway. True, but he couldn't maintain his power base if he only pandered to a tiny minority of Russians. Point is that while totalitarianism explains how regimes can hold on to power, it's not the whole picture. There's only so far he can maintain his grip if enough of a portion of the general public are robbed of peace of mind as regards financial security, food, health, etc. Revolutions occur when enough people are pissed off enough that they don't care if they risk death or imprisonment. For a milder picture, look at this country. Why do people keep voting for governments like the Tories who sell off public assets, and who gaslight the public for being pissed off at the cuts they say are necessary whilst enabling the richest to not only keep their wealth, but hoard even more? Because the Tories (in line with the English establishment's modus operandi for the past several centuries) have been smart enough to make sure just enough people are not in such a desperate situation as to turn against them. And that's starting to be eroded with the energy and cost-of-living crises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Bill Turnbull, former host of BBC Breakfast News, has passed away following a long battle with Prostate Cancer. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-62714293?at_custom4=723D1718-29CC-11ED-8213-7724FC756850&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom3=%40BBCBreaking&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=[post+type] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 20 hours ago, Carbomb said: the average Russian got free housing, education, and access to food most time Not sure on all that to be honest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetofthedeed Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 Seeing this and the Springsteen thread bumped at the same time gave me a small heart attack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSM Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 5 hours ago, WyattSheepMask said: Bill Turnbull, former host of BBC Breakfast News, has passed away following a long battle with Prostate Cancer. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-62714293?at_custom4=723D1718-29CC-11ED-8213-7724FC756850&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom3=%40BBCBreaking&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=[post+type] That's very sad to read. Bill came to an annual meeting put on by Ipswich Building Society one year and he was a guest speaker where he talked about his career & his live on air slip up of pronouncing "Jeremy Hunt". He was a nice guy to meet afterwards, just happy to chat to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 2 minutes ago, LSM said: That's very sad to read. Bill came to an annual meeting put on by Ipswich Building Society one year and he was a guest speaker where he talked about his career & his live on air slip up of pronouncing "Jeremy Hunt". He was a nice guy to meet afterwards, just happy to chat to people. I'd met him a few time around Suffolk in various places. Absolutely one of the nicest TV-related people I'd ever met. Incredibly down to earth, made time for everyone and always seemed appreciative of peoples time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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