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Pride


Chris B

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Society has come a long way. It has a long way to go but as others have said, at least conversations are being had more openly now that definitely were not happening when I was younger. I remember kids openly joking about gay people. About race. About all kinds of 'different' people that you simply don't think about the impact at that age.

I've got a good number of school friends that have since come out as gay and I'm so glad they now feel comfortable enough to do so and they seem so much happier. It's incredibly easy to just go about your business and not consider just how tough others have it, and I feel like I could've been a lot more supportive to some of my friends when I was younger, but I was also a lot more naïve than I was now. There is simply no need for ignorance these days. Everything's out there and easily accessible. 

I think any kind of representation - whether it be in films and TV shows, books, businesses etc - has to be a good thing. Sure we can look from a cynical perspective but there's no easy way to shift that dynamic without putting it out there. It just needs to be done on a regular basis so that it becomes less of a 'wow representation!' and more just the norm.

That's a hugely difficult task that will take time. You can't click your fingers and undo generations worth of attitudes etc, but we're already seeing far more open attitudes from younger people now and they'll pass that on to their children etc etc.

And to be honest, this topic is the first time I've ever really thought about the sexual orientation of others on here. It is nice to have a place where you can just converse without being judged on certain things, but it's also good to learn from others experiences.

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Nothing groundbreaking to add (as with others I see myself as a heterosexual white male but through family and friends I have always felt connected to members of the LGBTQIA+ community and I have tried my best to be an ally over the years), but I just wanted to say this thread has been a really lovely read. Sometimes this place is really great, 

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The next step in how we as a society perceive different sexualities, is to drop the term "straight" to describe heterosexuality, as all it does is continue to enforce the perception that heterosexuality is "normal" and all other sexualities are not. 

Also, we had a very similar thread about this subject on a football forum I frequent, and I'll say the same here as I did there. I long for a time where we no longer tell someone who comes out they are brave for doing so, as it will be an everyday thing and not carry any stigma at all. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Cod Eye said:

Also, we had a very similar thread about this subject on a football forum I frequent, and I'll say the same here as I did there. I long for a time where we no longer tell someone who comes out they are brave for doing so, as it will be an everyday thing and not carry any stigma at all. 

 

That will come, I'm sure but we'll be old or dead. You forget sometimes how quickly society has changed. Everything from technology to social attitudes about sexuality, sexual harassment and race. Many of us are at an age where people who were our age when we were born were born during the second world war. We've grown up with their attitudes and a social attitude in general that was scared of things that were different and mocked and labelled it. There has been a massive change in the last 15-20 years as to what is acceptable and despite there still being plenty of people who cry about cancel culture and long for the days when TV characters called each other pakis and poofs and god knows what. But they are literally dying off. If the world has changed so much in 15 years, I like to think attitudes will be unrecognisable when our kids are 40.

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6 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

That will come, I'm sure but we'll be old or dead. You forget sometimes how quickly society has changed. Everything from technology to social attitudes about sexuality, sexual harassment and race. Many of us are at an age where people who were our age when we were born were born during the second world war. We've grown up with their attitudes and a social attitude in general that was scared of things that were different and mocked and labelled it. There has been a massive change in the last 15-20 years as to what is acceptable and despite there still being plenty of people who cry about cancel culture and long for the days when TV characters called each other pakis and poofs and god knows what. But they are literally dying off. If the world has changed so much in 15 years, I like to think attitudes will be unrecognisable when our kids are 40.

I hope you're right(and sure you are). I was talking to some of the wrinklies who are regulars in one of my locals a few years ago when I found out I had a brother who was gay, and the AIDS epidemic in the 80's and how it was first reported(G.R.I.D. and all that bollocks) is still in the forefront of their minds despite all the evidence that has come out since. One of them actually asked me not to bring him to that pub incase he got a glass that my brother drunk out of that had not been washed right. He was a mega-old bloke, but still mind blowing someone could still believe that a)all gay people had HIV/AIDS, and b) that he could catch if from a glass. 

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I certainly relate to a shift in how society percieves LGBTQ+ and Pride in my 38 years. My parents didn't agree with gay people, even though they were friends with one. They just always told me they didn't agree with it. It never really affected me until I got with my first girlfriend at 16 and one of her elder brothers was gay and his partner lived with them. From then on I definitely felt a change in my perceptions and I loved it when I was invited out with them where they would show me their favourite spots in soho and we'd often go G.A.Y on a Thursday.

I feel the biggest change however is how we discuss LGBTQ+ with children now and the fact that there are now books aimed at children that discuss having gay parents and of course we are now seeing shows like Modern Family represent this as well. My daughter has these amazing books called Big People Little Dreams which are kid friendly biographies of people who have made an impact on the world and through these she was having conversations with us about race/segregation and people who were gay. Her understanding and perceptions are light years apart from mine at the same age, and I think the next generations will create an even more accepting society because of their awareness.

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yeah, the biggest shift for me has been working at a 16+ college in my old job and seeing how many kids were starting to identify as non-binary, trans, or genderqueer. 

Now, in many of those cases, I imagine it's just a matter of figuring out their place in the world and their own identity as we all had to as teenagers - for some of them, identifying with a "minority" gender might be a way to rationalise themselves feeling like an outsider for other reasons, and they might not keep that gender identity in adulthood. For many, it might be something of an identity they're "trying on" to make themselves seem more interesting - that was certainly the prevailing view among a lot of teaching staff - but then, I don't consider that a big issue either. When I was at college, you had a lot of people start claiming to be bisexual when many of them probably weren't for the same reason - it's a marker of being different and interesting, but one where you're not necessarily expected to start dating and sleeping with your own sex; a way of adopting some of the cultural cache of being gay, without having to put up with the stigma and the oppression. I kind of see a lot of kids calling themselves gender-neutral or genderqueer in a similar light; some of them will continue with that identity into adulthood, many of them will shed it once they have a better idea of who they really are.

But I don't think that's a bad thing, either, because it shows that those gender identities and sexualities are broadly accepted enough among their peers that they do feel safe in experimenting with them. I went to the same college when I was 16, and it had a reputation for being a bit of a last resort for kids who didn't do well enough at school to go anywhere else. I couldn't have imagined, back then, anyone sat in the canteen loudly talking about trans rights and gender issues the way I used to see it when I worked there, let alone there being LGBT+ societies and support groups. 

I can't think of anyone, at any school or college I went to, that was actually openly LGBT+ at all. There were people I went to school with who came out after leaving, and someone I went to university with who has since transitioned, but it was never a thing. And that wasn't that long ago, I'm only in my mid-30s. Seeing that there are kids who feel confident enough to be open and honest about their sexuality at a much younger age, and in environments where that would have been nigh-on a death sentence for many kids not too long ago, and knowing parents raising kids who are happy to support them in their own exploration of their gender identity, is really something incredible to see. 

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I always found it amusing how my Dad was the dinosaur in the family and would openly chastise anyone different on the telly and was the stereotypical neanderthal about everything. As time has gone on,  he has softened his stance on almost all things, which has been nice in a way. This came to a head recently when one of his martial arts mates told him that he was gay. I had no clue he was to be fair, as he comes across as well,  not. My dad was really good friends with this guy and I assumed he'd come to me and be all 'oh well, he's gay and whatnot'.

To my surprise (and genuine happiness), he didnt do that at all and embraced it in a way that I never, ever expected he would.

The downside to this is he now talks about having 'gay friends' and asks how 'my gay friends' are. Yeah they're good Dad. Cheers. I'll them them you said hi.

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27 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Now, in many of those cases, I imagine it's just a matter of figuring out their place in the world and their own identity as we all had to as teenagers - for some of them, identifying with a "minority" gender might be a way to rationalise themselves feeling like an outsider for other reasons, and they might not keep that gender identity in adulthood.

I think some of it might be a more wholesale rejection of inequality. That it's taking a bunch of the basic inequalities around gender in particular, and going 'fuck that'. The idea of future generations being far more flexible and comfortable around gender and sexuality is quite the way to reset a patriarchal society. What I wasn't expecting was for it to happen so quickly.

I love the idea of trying on some of the different identities and figuring out who they are. That sounds so much healthier than having barriers making it difficult to even begin figuring out.

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I'm that dullest of creatures, a straight white bloke in his mid-30s, and whilst I've always just accepted people for whoever they are, not a lot of folk around here are like that. I still worry I get vernacular wrong from time to time but I'm working on it. I still work and am related to some people with absolute caveman views on race, gender, sexuality etc but it does feel like they're fast becoming the minority. 

When I was a kid there were a couple of openly gay lads in my junior school who actively hid it when we started comp in 1996. My eldest has just finished comp and her close circle of friends for the past couple of years has been her, a couple of gay girls and guys and a trans boy. How attitudes have changed in probably the last 10 years or so genuinely makes me happy and whilst I'd like to say I'm proud of her for her attitude I don't think I need to, it just feels like a given to not be a piece of shit to someone for being remotely different.

Edited by cobra_gordo
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30 minutes ago, cobra_gordo said:

How attitudes have changed in probably the last 10 years or so genuinely makes me happy and whilst I'd like to say I'm proud of her for her attitude I don't think I need to, it just feels like a given to not be a piece of shit to someone for being remotely different.

See, that's how much has changed since things like this.

4 hours ago, SaitoRyo said:

 

Obviously, I get the whole joke about pride being about achievements - it's like the Bill Hicks 'Am I proud of my country? My parents fucked there. That's all.' But it's mean-spirited and petty considering the context of what was being protested.

AwMC2_ICIAApWVD.jpg.f55873d71e6b632bceb18fe91422c68a.jpg

This was a reaction to the prevailing attitude at the time that homosexuality was something to be disgusted by. And plenty of parents were encouraged to feel ashamed. And it's not even that pride is the opposite of shame - I don't have kids, but I imagine that being proud of your kids is pretty much the default most of the time.  That everyone pretty much gets to feel proud of their kids for anything they achieve. So this was very much about pride just being the absence of shame. 

And that's why I find the joke above shitty - not because it's specifically gay-bashing, but because it's suggesting that there's nothing to be proud of. That being a CEO or a Doctor is the level at which pride starts, not just generally 'I have kids and I'm proud of them'. If that pride was meaningless, like with a lot of patriotism, the joke works.

I saw that image on social media this morning just before I saw that youtube clip in the thread - both feel like snapshots of the past in different ways.

Edited by Chris B
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11 minutes ago, Chris B said:

See, that's how much has changed since things like this.

Obviously, I get the whole joke about pride being about achievements - it's like the Bill Hicks 'Am I proud of my country? My parents fucked there. That's all.' But it's mean-spirited and petty considering the context of what was being protested.

AwMC2_ICIAApWVD.jpg.f55873d71e6b632bceb18fe91422c68a.jpg

This was a reaction to the prevailing attitude at the time that homosexuality was something to be disgusted by. And plenty of parents were encouraged to feel ashamed. And it's not even that pride is the opposite of shame - I don't have kids, but I imagine that being proud of your kids is pretty much the default most of the time.  That everyone pretty much gets to feel proud of their kids for anything they achieve. So this was very much about pride just being the absence of shame. 

And that's why I find the joke above shitty - not because it's specifically gay-bashing, but because it's suggesting that there's nothing to be proud of. That being a CEO or a Doctor is the level at which pride starts, not just generally 'I have kids and I'm proud of them'. If that pride was meaningless, like with a lot of patriotism, the joke works.

I saw that image on social media this morning just before I saw that youtube clip in the thread - both feel like snapshots of the past in different ways.

Just to be clear, I don't agree with what Norm is saying, which is just a silly bit he's doing on a late night chat show to get a laugh during an, as you say, very different time. I'm not endorsing it as a genuine opinion. I probably shouldn't have just plopped it in here without any sort of accompanying comment, either. 

I misread the room in posting it and really didn't want to derail the thread and take away from what have been some lovely and sometimes eye-opening posts. 

I have two young kids myself and so I know what is actually meant by being 'proud' of them for coming out and feeling comfortable enough with themselves to do so. It's lovely when parents are able to be so supportive and absolutely fucking horrible when they refuse to be. 

Edited by SaitoRyo
Elaboration.
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In my counselling and in my support group a lot of things seem to centre around toxic masculinity behaviours. I'm still exploring this aspect of my father just now in counseling. I always have felt his toxic masculinity and also things from managers in my old job damaged me so I was afriad and also harboured some negative narrow viewpoint myself. I said to myself. This year I build up myself to be a better human and to accept that it's ok to be queer and to be able to accept I am who I am. All the professional help is greatly helping in the process.

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I'm a cis-heterosexual man but I am an ally - one of my closest colleagues is a lesbian and is married to her wife, i have close NB and trans friends, and my half-sister came out as bi-sexual on Instagram (she said to me she is Bi and is worried about how our dad will react - her mum apparently said it was a "phase" so whatever) - I will support her. 

 

We had to do a PSHE lesson on gender and sexuality to our class - my Y10s were pretty open to it - a lot of their attitude is "i don't care as long as it doesn't affect me" which I think is fine - indifference is better than intolerance - however, one of my history class tells me they face a lot of "there is only two genders" - they deal with it pretty well though (when they are at school). The school itself is pretty open and tolerant - we had two trans kids in Y11 who we just used their preferred name - some NB and trans kids in lower years who we just use their preferred name - the policy is if their parents are happy for us to use them, then we change it on the register etc. - my policy is if a kid asks me to use a certain name, I'll use it - regardless of parental feelings. I want to make life as easy as possible for the kid. 

 

I'm openly as supportive as I can be - I have a trans rights flag on my whiteboard that was drawn for me by the trans Y11 - I know I need to include some LGBTQIA+ history in the curriculum - trying to figure out where I can include it without making it a big thing, for example. 

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7 minutes ago, SaitoRyo said:

Just to be clear, I don't agree with what Norm is saying, which is just a silly bit he's doing on a late night chat show to get a laugh during an, as you say, very different time. I'm not endorsing it as a genuine opinion. I probably shouldn't have just plopped it in here without any sort of accompanying comment, either. 

I misread the room in posting it and really didn't want to derail the thread and take away from what have been some lovely and sometimes eye-opening posts. 

I have two young kids myself and so I know what is actually meant by being 'proud' of them for coming out and feeling comfortable enough with themselves to do so. It's lovely when parents are able to be so supportive and absolutely fucking horrible when they refuse to be. 

It's cool - that wasn't meant to be a put-down. I genuinely found it interesting to see both that image and that video within the same hour or so, and I just started thinking about how they're both older attitudes, but in different ways.

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