Pride

[Keith Houchen]

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

First off, 'queer' isn't restricted to sexuality - it's also a term used with regards to gender.

That makes sense, I guess that’s the difference between a gay icon and a queer icon. language is a forever evolving thing. Although much like self ID, I still maintain the term is used for exploitative purposes

 

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

While I know this isn't confined to the bathroom/changing-room parts of the conversation, I think they're worth extrapolating from - and from what I've seen and heard from a lot of women I know, most of the time, cis women don't have an issue with sharing space with trans women. After all, they share a common danger from being attacked by cis men.

The bathroom one is odd isn’t it? I mean they have stalls so unless you’re stood at a urinal I’d be worried about the state of the place if you’re seeing other peoples genitalia. Without meaning to sound flippant or dismissive, I love the idea that a predator is going to be stopped in their tracks by bathroom signage and a respect of the law. And as has been pointed out, your toilet at home is gender neutral and you’re far more likely to be attacked at home by someone you know. 

 

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

After all, they share a common danger from being attacked by cis men.

My experience is mainly limited to women’s access to rape crisis and shelters. To paraphrase an expression, the women using these services know it’s not all men, the issue is they don’t know which men. That’s why for instance GMRC have women only buildings yet they’ve been on the receiving end of abuse from TRAs for not allowing self IDig women access. Trying to shut down a rape crisis centre because you think they won’t help you if you theoretically are attacked is, quite frankly, entitlement at its most baffling. 
 

4 hours ago, Chris B said:

What a lot of it seems to come down to is the principle of the thing - 'if we allow this, then where does it end?'

That’s the problem a lot of women have. It isn’t the big stuff like prisons, it’s the little infractions day by day that always seem to affect women and never men. It’s like the aforementioned well meaning but clumsy approach. One example is the high street store that changed their tampon packaging to read “For people who menstruate”. A well meaning gesture to be inclusive of trans men who use their products and women who don’t menstruate. 
 

Trouble is, the original packaging didn’t say “For Women”, it didn’t say anything like that because it’s tampons, and people know what tampons are for. It’s a well meaning gesture to include a tiny percentage of customers but it annoys a lot too. To them,It’s reducing women to a bodily function and erasing womanhood. Couple this with the same store having their “Be Men” line of toiletries go unchanged and I can understand why some women have had enough because it’s never “Male things” being changed to be inclusive. 
 

Of course, just because I understand why the frustration is there, it no way means I agree with attacks on the trans community or marginalising them further. The whole patriarchal society is to blame, not trans people, but that’s easy for a cishet man to say. 
 

I realise I’m doing that very male thing of possibly speaking for women. Apologies, I’ll leave it there. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Keith Houchen

[patiirc]

7 hours ago, Chris B said:

I do understand the fear. But being aware of how many trans people are being told that both male and female spaces aren't appropriate for them, and how much risk of attack trans people have to live with, is why so many people think that trans people live with far more risk than they present.

Oh gosh, the bit in BIB is very very much an pertinent point. I could write a book about this as well as societal attitudes caused by radicalisation on twitter and how terfs are a very british invention, some of that is covered here, though dont agree with the Skeptic movement progenesis https://theoutline.com/post/6536/british-feminists-media-transphobic

 

2 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

 

 

My experience is mainly limited to women’s access to rape crisis and shelters. To paraphrase an expression, the women using these services know it’s not all men, the issue is they don’t know which men. That’s why for instance GMRC have women only buildings yet they’ve been on the receiving end of abuse from TRAs for not allowing self IDig women access. Trying to shut down a rape crisis centre because you think they won’t help you if you theoretically are attacked is, quite frankly, entitlement at its most baffling. 
 

That’s the problem a lot of women have. It isn’t the big stuff like prisons, it’s the little infractions day by day that always seem to affect women and never men. It’s like the aforementioned well meaning but clumsy approach. One example is the high street store that changed their tampon packaging to read “For people who menstruate”. A well meaning gesture to be inclusive of trans men who use their products and women who don’t menstruate. 
 

Trouble is, the original packaging didn’t say “For Women”, it didn’t say anything like that because it’s tampons, and people know what tampons are for. It’s a well meaning gesture to include a tiny percentage of customers but it annoys a lot too. To them,It’s reducing women to a bodily function and erasing womanhood. Couple this with the same store having their “Be Men” line of toiletries go unchanged and I can understand why some women have had enough because it’s never “Male things” being changed to be inclusive. 
 

Of course, just because I understand why the frustration is there, it no way means I agree with attacks on the trans community or marginalising them further. The whole patriarchal society is to blame, not trans people, but that’s easy for a cishet man to say. 
 

I realise I’m doing that very male thing of possibly speaking for women. Apologies, I’ll leave it there. 

Keith

First bit in bold. Trans women arent men. It's a classic terf refrain that trans people here over and over and over. Also as your posts are ably demonstrating and something that echos terf ideology they're trans men blind and by that logic they are quite happy sharing these spaces with people like this very muscular trans man.  Not removing men is it? Instead it's increasing them. indeed going by your posts, it's very clear that people have not thought this through

 

2.) Second bit in bold it was actually the removal of the venus symbol from outer packaging to make products more inclusive and was asked by a very young Trans man on twitter to do so. For doing that he was hounded of social media sent death threats and the rest.  Snopes article here https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pg-venus-symbol-removed/ 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mention the T and people lose their collective shit,  the whole trans ( and by association LGBTQ people) are evil tropes are springing up all over the place. Look at Poland, Hungary and the camps in the Ukraine amongst other things as to where this is actually going. There's been segregation stuff in this thread, and suggestions that well Trans people are different and should be feared. They shouldnt

They, we, should also not be talked about like black people in the us were in the past as trans people, genderfluid people etc were responsible for pride, following Stonewall.  Current views in the uk seem to want to do 'segregated buses or restaurants or water fountains' and things for trans people and others are completely blind and oblivious to historical repetition . Nor should we be demonised to the point that some have actively asked whether they should dust the pink triangle off in all seriousness as that is the way the wind is blowing.

I will say that I am weary of this becoming the T thread  when Pride is for all members of the community and about good things as well, like everyone else, we're human , deserve not to be hated and have parity in society. It's not difficult and wont wreck the lives of others to do that small thing.

[Keith Houchen]

11 minutes ago, patiirc said:

Trans women arent men

I didn’t say they were. As I said, I was paraphrasing the not all men quote. So I thought it was pretty clear the paraphrase would be “Women know it’s not all trans women, the trouble is they don’t know which trans women” to show why some women don’t want self IDing trans women in women’s spaces. But as you say, how would that stop violent abusive lesbians from using them? It wouldn’t. 

 

18 minutes ago, patiirc said:

) Second bit in bold it was actually the removal of the venus symbol from outer packaging to make products more inclusive and was asked by a very young Trans man on twitter to do so. For doing that he was hounded of social media sent death threats and the rest.

Much like brands being branded with the halal symbol, I know it’s done for economic reasons, same with corporate inclusiveness. As I’ve said repeatedly, although probably not enough, these aren’t my views!!  I’m saying I can understand why women feel they’re being erased in the name of inclusion. It’s never male products, or language around male bodies. When Stonewall are lobbying for employers to replace “Mothers” with “Parent who gave birth”, I can see why women are angry about that. 
 

The media never help of course. I mean, is it The Times that have had close to a thousand articles in 18 months on trans issues? I don’t think a single one is positive and does that classic trope of “One person said this so that means it’s happening” when one person suggested something in a brainstorming session so they report it as if it’s law!

Its horrible that lad received abuse and death threats. I hope those responsible face justice. Much like I hope that prick from Brunel Uni with their “Let’s kill TERFS” shit and all the fringe TRAs with their “Choke on my trans dick TERF scum” and who threaten violence to trans people and those who threaten violence to women do too. 

34 minutes ago, patiirc said:

Current views in the uk seem to want to do 'segregated buses or restaurants or water fountains' and things for trans people

I’ve never heard these views expressed but will certainly oppose them when I do. 
 

I think, and hope, that things will change for the better. I think that we look back in horror at how trans people were treated 30 years ago, and in 30 years time we will look back in horror at how they’re treated now. I have hope in the young to change things because people my age and older won’t. 

[Cod Eye]

This thread has been so interesting and in a way eye opening to me, a bog standard, fat and old straight white male. There are terms and descriptions talked about in here that I have never heard before, and have made me look them up and now understand. So thank you!

Can i ask something though, please? Patiirc mentioned that she couldn't play Rugby now, and it got me thinking about elite level sports(sorry, my mind always ends up thinking about sports!). Where do people stand on the "issue" of trans men and women competing in with their "new" sex(the Olympics for example)? I'm honestly really conflicted about it. On one hand, why shouldn't a trans mtf athlete compete against other women(and vice versa), after all they are women and men? But then on the other I fear that women's elite level sports will become nearly 100% mtf by default when less and less of those who are female at birth are able to compete. I don't know the answer to it all, but I wondered what those who are trans or genderfluid on the forum thought?

edit:

Just thought I'd clarify, I specifically focussed on mtf and not ftm as I don't think there are any elite lever ftm athletes at the top level at the minute(that I know of, anyway) 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Cod Eye

[patiirc]

13 minutes ago, Cod Eye said:

This thread has been so interesting and in a way eye opening to me, a bog standard, fat and old straight white male. There are terms and descriptions talked about in here that I have never heard before, and have made me look them up and now understand. So thank you!

Can i ask something though, please? Patiirc mentioned that she couldn't play Rugby now, and it got me thinking about elite level sports(sorry, my mind always ends up thinking about sports!). Where do people stand on the "issue" of trans men and women competing in with their "new" sex(the Olympics for example)? I'm honestly really conflicted about it. On one hand, why shouldn't a trans mtf athlete compete against other women(and vice versa), after all they are women and men? But then on the other I fear that women's elite level sports will become nearly 100% mtf by default when less and less of those who are female at birth are able to compete. I don't know the answer to it all, but I wondered what those who are trans or genderfluid on the forum thought?

edit:

Just thought I'd clarify, I specifically focussed on mtf and not ftm as I don't think there are any elite lever ftm athletes at the top level at the minute(that I know of, anyway) 

Currently there's less than a handful of world champions, and there's a massive brouhaha about a paralympian  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207 and a weightlifter https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/05/trans-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-set-to-make-history-at-tokyo-olympics being the first to be trans representatives in the olympics. 

There's zilch domination in world class sport because of a multitude of different factors that affect success in those realms.  Sport after transition is ridiculously monitored, here's the IOC guidelines currently https://stillmed.olympic.org/Documents/Commissions_PDFfiles/Medical_commission/2015-11_ioc_consensus_meeting_on_sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

These are due to change after Tokyo, gawd only knows what other restrictions will be in place. 

Transitioning takes years out of your life, Sport is incredibly difficult at elite levels and doing that with all of surgery recovery, where applicable as well as hormones and training where a body is fighting itself before gonadal removal then yeah it's not going to happen.

So to answer your question, there's absolutely no chance of women's sport being dominated by trans athletes in the way in which you describe.  

Regarding Trans males. Chris Mosier is most well known, then Mack Beggs. Decent read here about trans men in sport if you are interested https://www.insidehook.com/article/sports/trans-athletes-win-boys-sports

 

[SuperBacon]

24 minutes ago, Cod Eye said:

This thread has been so interesting and in a way eye opening to me, a bog standard, fat and old straight white male. There are terms and descriptions talked about in here that I have never heard before, and have made me look them up and now understand. So thank you!

Can i ask something though, please? Patiirc mentioned that she couldn't play Rugby now, and it got me thinking about elite level sports(sorry, my mind always ends up thinking about sports!). Where do people stand on the "issue" of trans men and women competing in with their "new" sex(the Olympics for example)? I'm honestly really conflicted about it. On one hand, why shouldn't a trans mtf athlete compete against other women(and vice versa), after all they are women and men? But then on the other I fear that women's elite level sports will become nearly 100% mtf by default when less and less of those who are female at birth are able to compete. I don't know the answer to it all, but I wondered what those who are trans or genderfluid on the forum thought?

edit:

Just thought I'd clarify, I specifically focussed on mtf and not ftm as I don't think there are any elite lever ftm athletes at the top level at the minute(that I know of, anyway) 

It's an interesting conversation and one that isn't black and white. I believe that there has to be a level of testosterone that an athlete has to be under in order for them to compete, as in the Caster Semenya case. (I could be wrong though)

But as always it's often presented as an extreme. Theres always the argument of "so we should be letting a bearded 6 foot 7 'man' compete against dainty little women" when that's just not the case.

The idea that a man is going to transition to a woman in order to win a race or a medal is just so fucking ludicrous and must present an incredibly small percentage of what's happening. There is probably a handful of cases where that's happened. Also we are talking elite athletes. The women that exist in those fields will most likely still be the best at it. 

Still, I love the idea of a man who is shit at tennis, thinking "I'll just 'transition' and compete as a woman" only to come up against Serena Williams. (I am of course being a tiny bit flippant here)

 

[patiirc]

37 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I didn’t say they were. As I said, I was paraphrasing the not all men quote. So I thought it was pretty clear the paraphrase would be “Women know it’s not all trans women, the trouble is they don’t know which trans women” to show why some women don’t want self IDing trans women in women’s spaces. But as you say, how would that stop violent abusive lesbians from using them? It wouldn’t. 

I get that and was discussing not accusing.  Broken Rainbow https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ph50/evidence/report-4-broken-rainbow-uk-national-lgbt-domestic-violence-service-pdf-430408045 and perhaps Galop would have better statistics but the reading is grim. Most refuges will have trans and also lesbian partner protocols to follow because putting perps in with victims is never a good idea. End the Fear also  have some good resources too http://www.endthefear.co.uk/same-sex-domestic-abuse/

Much like brands being branded with the halal symbol, I know it’s done for economic reasons, same with corporate inclusiveness. As I’ve said repeatedly, although probably not enough, these aren’t my views!!  I’m saying I can understand why women feel they’re being erased in the name of inclusion. It’s never male products, or language around male bodies. When Stonewall are lobbying for employers to replace “Mothers” with “Parent who gave birth”, I can see why women are angry about that. 

I get that these are not your views and are trying to have a discussion, however  transmen and non binary people give birth.  Language and culture evolves. British stoicism as well as some really fucked up victorian gender rules (see also problems with sex, sexuality, and everything else caused by things like this) and  Stonewall arent the first a Brighton NHS trust had similar kick back recently for similar reasons. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-56007728. 

People are scared of change, and more so in the current climate. The reality is stuff like this affects nothing and not the care provided and then goes into the deep and frankly I cant be arsed to go into world of semiotics and the rest. Some think that that is erasure, others think it's progress. Et Voila impasse

The media never help of course. I mean, is it The Times that have had close to a thousand articles in 18 months on trans issues? I don’t think a single one is positive and does that classic trope of “One person said this so that means it’s happening” when one person suggested something in a brainstorming session so they report it as if it’s law!

Its horrible that lad received abuse and death threats. I hope those responsible face justice. Much like I hope that prick from Brunel Uni with their “Let’s kill TERFS” shit and all the fringe TRAs with their “Choke on my trans dick TERF scum” and who threaten violence to trans people and those who threaten violence to women do too. 

I’ve never heard these views expressed but will certainly oppose them when I do. 

Social media is a cess pit for this shit, it's amazing how much society has regressed over the last decade or so, because of this. People on both sides have started wearing police involvement like a badge of honour as if it is a game. I worry that if someone is actually pulped or killed on whichever side, by whatever side that the backlash will swift and we will all be fucked. 

I think, and hope, that things will change for the better. I think that we look back in horror at how trans people were treated 30 years ago, and in 30 years time we will look back in horror at how they’re treated now. I have hope in the young to change things because people my age and older won’t. 

 

[Cod Eye]

Thanks @patiircand @SuperBaconfor the replies!

Can I ask how the body reacts differently depending on what age the transition occurs? Again, I'm thinking on the sporting front and body development. If someone born a boy starts the transition at say, 8 year old, would their body develop the same as a natural born(sorry if that is not the right term, I'm still learning) female? Then comparing it to a (again, lets say) 24 year old who was born male had has started the trasition?

[Chris B]

We're wandering into quite the Q&A here, aren't we? While we all know Pat tends to have a lot of resources to hand, we're also running through a lot of anti-trans talking points. While I'm believing good faith, there are a lot of people who do this in a very negative way on social media, etc, while maintaining 'hey, I'm just asking the question, not stating my beliefs, but if you don't have an answer...'. And I've seen how exhausting having to deal with these talking points can be. 

I'm not a mod and not looking to cut down on conversation - again, zero doubts that Pat (or anyone else) is more than capable of responding. I'm just aware that this thread has been very positive, and that this is wandering into quite a spiky direction. 

[patiirc]

1 minute ago, Chris B said:

We're wandering into quite the Q&A here, aren't we? While we all know Pat tends to have a lot of resources to hand, we're also running through a lot of anti-trans talking points. While I'm believing good faith, there are a lot of people who do this in a very negative way on social media, etc, while maintaining 'hey, I'm just asking the question, not stating my beliefs, but if you don't have an answer...'. And I've seen how exhausting having to deal with these talking points can be. 

I'm not a mod and not looking to cut down on conversation - again, zero doubts that Pat (or anyone else) is more than capable of responding. I'm just aware that this thread has been very positive, and that this is wandering into quite a spiky direction. 

Indeed,  it's very much a thing plus this is as mentioned is not a T thread... more colours of the rainbow ❤️

[patiirc]

16 minutes ago, Cod Eye said:

Thanks @patiircand @SuperBaconfor the replies!

Can I ask how the body reacts differently depending on what age the transition occurs? Again, I'm thinking on the sporting front and body development. If someone born a boy starts the transition at say, 8 year old, would their body develop the same as a natural born(sorry if that is not the right term, I'm still learning) female? Then comparing it to a (again, lets say) 24 year old who was born male had has started the trasition?

Depends on that persons endocrine system is the short short answer. Some have better hormone reception others do not. General rule of thumb is earlier transition the better results due to age and genetics and slow down in the endocrine system and other external factors. 

To some the ideal is before puberty (most trans people will know their trans from around 4-10 as soon as they can articulate it. There's no late onset transition, it's bollocks) hence the issue with puberty blockers delaying puberty to transition is currently seen as the best way in some parts to help those who are dysphoric

Talking to someone who is going through periods whilst knowing they are a man, is perhaps one of the most harrowing things you could do and does schism and fracture people regularly. Same with voice breaking (cant be undone) for a transwoman. 

Kim Petras is commonly used as an example of how transitioning young works https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/06/19/kim-petras-childhood-germany-trans-gender-confirmation-surgery-malibu-los-angeles/

There are others, but it's not really a road I want to go down 

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, patiirc said:

transmen and non binary people give birth.  Language and culture evolves. 

Indeed they do, but whilst I'm not affected either way, I'm all for total inclusion and solidarity across every fabric in society.  But despite the inclusivity, "Mother" and "Motherhood" are a protected category and some women see this inclusion as their erasion to pander to a tiny minority.  Being a mother is often a womans defining characteristic and is integral to their existence.  Removing that to benefit a tiny percentage of people who give birth understandably seems like a continued assault on women because the same things aren't applied when it comes to men.  But as you say, that's not the fault of trans people, it's the fault of a heavily stacked patriarchal capitalist society.

Although can you imagine how the toxic, fragile masculinity bros would be if the same was applied?  I'm sure they'll be "The Best A Man Can Be"

 

1 hour ago, patiirc said:

British stoicism as well as some really fucked up victorian gender rules

To tie in with the sport theme, have you read Those Feet by David Winner?  It highlights how English football was formed by Victorian churches and how a Victorian fear of masturbation still hangs over the way England play and why England can produce a Bobby Moore, but will never produce a Maradona! That and post empire declinism, he argues, are the reasons why England won't ever win a major tournament until they get rid of them.  It's brilliant stuff!

 

2 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

It's an interesting conversation and one that isn't black and white. I believe that there has to be a level of testosterone that an athlete has to be under in order for them to compete, as in the Caster Semenya case. (I could be wrong though)

There is another factor to her case and that's racism.  It's obscene the lengths they'll go to in order to prevent her winning.

 

2 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

Still, I love the idea of a man who is shit at tennis, thinking "I'll just 'transition' and compete as a woman" only to come up against Serena Williams.

Again, racism plays a huge part in the Serena hate.  The poor woman almost died giving birth and the authorities wanted to ban her specially designed attire which helped.  The way she is portrayed as some uppity black woman who is mouthy compared to the way McEnroe et al are lauded shows the racism/sexism structure I'm on about. 

However, she is a good example of the physical differences in male and female tennis players.  She more than likely wouldn't beat a male player ranked in the top 100, let alone challenge for titles.  I do wonder though how much of being a top ranked individual sportsperson is down to physicality and how much is down to opportunity? Obviously I'm limiting the field here but take Motor Racing and Horse Racing.  Smaller, lighter frames are beneficial in both of these, and of course there are no restrictions on people of any gender competing.  It all comes back to the patriarchy for me, would Louise Hamilton progressed through karting to be a world champ like Lewis did, for example? It's seen as a mans sport.  

I think team sports are a different kettle of fish. The NBA is a good example of how male physicality is more suited to the game, what with height being a big plus.  I have to wonder though if a girl was given the same chances from childhood if they could make it?  There have been plenty of sub 6 foot elite NBA players over the years but as I say, the culture probably stops them.

[SuperBacon]

12 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I have to wonder though if a girl was given the same chances from childhood if they could make it?

They could always play in the WNBA

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, SuperBacon said:

They could always play in the WNBA

Nothing stopping them playing in the NBA!

[SuperBacon]

4 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Nothing stopping them playing in the NBA!

I didn't actually know that was possible so thanks.