Pride

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, Jesse said:

 

I think there's a lot of pressure to do it, in a well-meaning way.

 

Yeah a lot of these measures and drives from places are done with the best intentions but done in such a massively clumsy way. Especially corporate visibility, it so often feels like that South Park episode with the nurse who has a foetus growing out of her face. Not only are you risking alienating people, your potential alienating the ones you’re trying to help, like in yours and pats examples. 

[Carbomb]

I have to confess some ignorance here, so I'd definitely appreciate some edification on this: is there a particular connotation to "they/them" that is undesirable to someone identifying as non-binary? I was genuinely under the impression that "they/them" was the pronoun set of choice for those who didn't want to be forced into any particular identity. Obviously, I'd like to avoid doing that through ignorance.

(I had also heard the words "ze/zer/zim" but I would hazard a guess that it was too much of a new set of words for people to get used to?)

[Jazzy G]

Some nonbinary people are gender fluid, so their pronouns might change depending on how they're presenting. I've got a friend like this who enjoys presenting as female sometimes and prefers to be addressed as she when she does this, but when he's presenting as male doesn't mind being addressed as he. They is used sometimes as a catch all on social media because it's easier than Facebook wondering what you're up to fannying around with your profile/gender settings. 

Zim/xim/zer/xem etc are some nonbinary attempts to have a pronoun people would feel comfortable with, alongside the prefix "Mx" 

Edited June 5, 2021 by jazzygeofferz

[Keith Houchen]

50 minutes ago, jazzygeofferz said:

I've got a friend like this who enjoys presenting as female sometimes and prefers to be addressed as she when she does this, but when he's presenting as male doesn't mind being addressed as he.

OK, a few things before I post, this may seem all TERFy and bigoted and that's fair enough, and it isn't aimed at your friend.  Also, as a cishet man I have no valid opinion.

When I see stuff like that, I can totally understand why some women think some men are taking the piss when it comes to self ID and access to women only spaces.  I'm not saying your friend tries to access these spaces, just for clarification.  To me, there isn't a world of difference between this and that tory bollocks who said he is male except for Tuesday afternoon.  He was obviously taking the piss out of pronouns and generally being an awful prick, but I can understand why some women get annoyed at part time self IDing women.  Being a woman isn't cosplay where you present as the patriarchal view of what a woman should look like.

As I said before, we are trying to be progressive and helpful, but in an incredibly clumsy way.  I think it's wrong that someone who has struggled all of their lives with who they are, faced the horrible personal anguish, the abuse, the family disowning them, the depression, the ostracism can now in some small part live their life with freedom and acceptance, and then some berk like me with stubble can put on some lippy and a dress and say "Yeah, I'm female" and be afforded the same status?  It's offensive.

I was reading something about how there has been an exponential rise in women being charged with sexual offences, something like a 70% rise in the last 5 years.  Yet a quick look shows that the huge majority of these cases are where people are self IDing as women.  It really takes the piss out of women and trans people, as if trans people are responsible for them and need to speak out against them and condemn them.  In my opinion it's no different to demanding all muslims apologise for ISIS.

TL;DR  Self ID is problematic as fuck

[patiirc]

20 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

OK, a few things before I post, this may seem all TERFy and bigoted and that's fair enough, and it isn't aimed at your friend.  Also, as a cishet man I have no valid opinion.

When I see stuff like that, I can totally understand why some women think some men are taking the piss when it comes to self ID and access to women only spaces.  I'm not saying your friend tries to access these spaces, just for clarification.  To me, there isn't a world of difference between this and that tory bollocks who said he is male except for Tuesday afternoon.  He was obviously taking the piss out of pronouns and generally being an awful prick, but I can understand why some women get annoyed at part time self IDing women.  Being a woman isn't cosplay where you present as the patriarchal view of what a woman should look like.

As I said before, we are trying to be progressive and helpful, but in an incredibly clumsy way.  I think it's wrong that someone who has struggled all of their lives with who they are, faced the horrible personal anguish, the abuse, the family disowning them, the depression, the ostracism can now in some small part live their life with freedom and acceptance, and then some berk like me with stubble can put on some lippy and a dress and say "Yeah, I'm female" and be afforded the same status?  It's offensive.

I was reading something about how there has been an exponential rise in women being charged with sexual offences, something like a 70% rise in the last 5 years.  Yet a quick look shows that the huge majority of these cases are where people are self IDing as women.  It really takes the piss out of women and trans people, as if trans people are responsible for them and need to speak out against them and condemn them.  In my opinion it's no different to demanding all muslims apologise for ISIS.

TL;DR  Self ID is problematic as fuck

Ah, Keith. 

Tl:dr Self ID isnt problematic as fuck and trans men also exist. (The maddening part of the Terf debate they miss out) 

Trans people in Pakistan actually have more rights than trans people in the UK. It may not be enforced, but the legislation is there and enacted, despite the horrible lives hindjuras et al are subjected to. 

Last time I checked bigender and genderfluid are both valid for gender dysphoric presentation. 

You then have transmen who terfs forget about as many/most are not flannel shirt wearing chino stereotypes indeed when hormones kick in you'll have a man in front of you and many like to get buff, see aydan dowling, Elliot Page, Chris Mozier et al. 

Beefcake is much what ultra femme is to some mtf transitioners. 

With toilet rules in place, women will actually come in to contact with way more men, than they ever have. but it's never mentioned, same with women's spaces... 

Government has just done a toilet consultation and wants more binary public loos and it looks like segregation much like the US did with race and has done with trans people continues. 

I understand the fears, but erasure of trans women kinda completely misses the point, opens up new problems and really does not scratch the surface of lesbian violence either. much like straight men who are raped by gay men, or even gay men who rape men in general. The Manchester dude is Britain's most prolific rapist, then you realise there's a massive can of worms that would be better known if people would report it. Cept they dont and instead seemingly and it's near enough always Canadian reports are used in the toilet debate here. 

 women also would have to face up to the massive issues where women are pedophilic perps, groomers etc but that's also brushed aside and buried as well

I find it totally ironic that terfs answers to trans people is to behave like men, be funded by men and directed by men, especially christian far right groups and dont get the stockholm syndrome nature if that relationship. 

There's a load more, including many trans people feeling more safe in EA2010 because it affords some protection and this now includes non binary. 

And then, you have a cohort of transvestites who are completely left out of the situation no dysphoria, no desire to change gender and quite happy going out and dressing up without a care whatever their cis gender is. 

It's not what terfs say it is nor is it a tra force everything. If the Bastard GRA had been rolled in to the EA we'd not be having this discussion as trans people have self declared for ever. its only the last 50 years that there's been any legislation around it. 

[Chris B]

Of course, trans men who self-identify don't exist.

 

Edit: hadn't seen Pat's post.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Chris B

[Keith Houchen]

My point is self ID can be used against trans people as they suddenly seem to be held accountable when wronguns abuse it. I didn’t mention trans men because my point was how I can understand why some women feel that men are invading their spaces, specifically shelters and the like. 
 

What rights don’t trans people have at the moment that cis people have, and what can us cis people do to help get them? Writing to your MP and things like that?
 

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

[Chris B]

5 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

You know he's a trans man, right?

[patiirc]

Just now, Keith Houchen said:

My point is self ID can be used against trans people as they suddenly seem to be held accountable when wronguns abuse it. I didn’t mention trans men because my point was how I can understand why some women feel that men are invading their spaces, specifically shelters and the like. 
 

What rights don’t trans people have at the moment that cis people have, and what can us cis people do to help get them? Writing to your MP and things like that?
 

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

The point is though if you segregate on birth sex as is the terf way, they will have to share space with trans men, as in talks like acts like looks like a man. 

So instead of trans women they'll have the manliest men to share with instead, the exact thing they claim they don't want. surely you can see the ridiculousness of that? 

What rights include that cis people dont have includes birth certs and marraige in name and gender will be dead name in law. cis spousal veto on a grc application. 

Because of lack of proof, it's harder to register to vote, took me 5/6 years after transition meaning that there are trans people who are disenfranchised. 

Non binary people dont exist legally barring the recent EA ruling. 

Access to health care is problematic especially for pregnancy and sexual health and even more mundane as nhs numbers change and unless markers are made post transition transwomen wont be screened for prostate cancer, transmen for breast and cervical cancer. 

There's a shed ton more including death, estates and legal entity. 

Elliot was a lesbian, is now trans, beibg or having been 2 out 4 of lgbtq is pretty much why, ditto being so open about it. 

[Keith Houchen]

9 minutes ago, Chris B said:

You know he's a trans man, right?

Are you saying he is a different kind of man to you or I?  Either trans men are men, or they aren’t. 

 

4 minutes ago, patiirc said:

You know he's a trans man, right?

Oh Absolutely! It’s such a huge blind spot which is, as you say, completely illogical!

I hear what you’re saying regarding difficulties and how hugely problematic things are, particularly the NHS, but with respect, that isn’t denying anyone rights. It puts up numerous obstacles though so I guess that’s how they get around the wording. 
So what can we do to help?

[patiirc]

1 minute ago, Keith Houchen said:

Are you saying he is a different kind of man to you or I?  Either trans men are men, or they aren’t. 

 

 

Oh Absolutely! It’s such a huge blind spot which is, as you say, completely illogical!

I hear what you’re saying regarding difficulties and how hugely problematic things are, particularly the NHS, but with respect, that isn’t denying anyone rights. It puts up numerous obstacles though so I guess that’s how they get around the wording. 
So what can we do to help?

I can't actually play rugby even if I wanted too, which is arse! I forgot that before. 

Human rights act is used in a number of cases regarding trans rights especially because you cant get a GRC without a diagnosis and you'll be waiting around 3 years or more for that on NHS route currently. From day1 of transition, trans people effectively become legal non entities and changing hmrc stuff is arse ditto everything else, but back to rights its that they've not got access to healthcare and they cant, be, without a bit of paper. 

EA2010 covers much, but not all and without grc then paretal rights, adoption and until relatively recently pensions and service pensions was a nightmare. 

Some trans people dont bother with a lot of it and you end up with high profile fuck ups around, elections, basic job applications and the rest. 

Even more bizarre is its illegal to ask to see a GRC as you'll out yourself... 

Dunno if you are still in or around Mancs but email Sparkle, who will be able to help a bit more or lgbt Foundation, who ll certainly say what people can do to help. 

[Keith Houchen]

8 minutes ago, patiirc said:

Some trans people dont bother with a lot of it and you end up with high profile fuck ups around, elections, basic job applications and the rest. 

Yeah I thought that might be the case, so the powers that be can try and make out they’re disenfranchised by their own choice. Thanks for the intro to Sparkle, I’ll drop them an email (and hope it doesn’t get damaged)

11 minutes ago, patiirc said:

but back to rights its that they've not got access to healthcare and they cant,

I think I’m reading this wrong but if this is after day one of transition, isn’t that vis the NHS which is healthcare? If they turned up at A+E with an injury they’d be turned away with help?

[patiirc]

15 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Yeah I thought that might be the case, so the powers that be can try and make out they’re disenfranchised by their own choice. Thanks for the intro to Sparkle, I’ll drop them an email (and hope it doesn’t get damaged)

I think I’m reading this wrong but if this is after day one of transition, isn’t that vis the NHS which is healthcare? If they turned up at A+E with an injury they’d be turned away with help?

oh gosh there's lots including proving identity which is bastard difficult especially when you start with a stat dec or adeed poll and naff all else. imagine being legally named  Bob, but all of your certificates, cash cards, rent, mortgage, benefit etc are all in your dead name of Brenda. Tres hilarity as the person you were doesn't exist any more and you cant prove who you are barring one bit of paper.. Gcses, Degrees any professional qualifications etc. muchos not fun.

Re health care turning up to A and E or something after changing your nhs number, you dont exist. It shouldn't be that way as there's being some tightening of the rules and some bleed between records. but if you're carrying infectious diseases or allergies etc then massively problematic. 

If you dont change nhs number then old gender marker and name for you until it gets updated. and Mx.. which is fun on medical wards, oh ho ho! 

That's before specific trans treatment, or GPS refusing to work with trans people period, post keira bell. 

Hope that helps

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, patiirc said:

oh gosh there's lots including proving identity which is bastard difficult especially when you start with a stat dec or adeed poll and naff all else. imagine being legally named  Bob, but all of your certificates, cash cards, rent, mortgage, benefit etc are all in your dead name of Brenda. Tres hilarity as the person you were doesn't exist any more and you cant prove who you are barring one bit of paper.. Gcses, Degrees any professional qualifications etc. muchos not fun.

This sounds to me like it's part of a whole rigged system.  Getting that shit sorted sounds expensive, and due to being ostracised, unemployment within the trans community means most can't afford to get it sorted, which means they can't get the job/income they need to get it sorted etc.  Class solidarity!

[Chris B]

8 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Are you saying he is a different kind of man to you or I?  Either trans men are men, or they aren’t. 

First off, 'queer' isn't restricted to sexuality - it's also a term used with regards to gender. So, Elliot Page was a queer icon both when he identified publicly as a woman who was gay, and still is now he identifies as a man. Secondly, a 'gotcha' around claiming this is somehow a blindspot is kind of bullshit - saying 'trans men are men' or 'trans women are women' isn't denying the existence of trans or cis people. 

9 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

 It really takes the piss out of women and trans people, as if trans people are responsible for them and need to speak out against them and condemn them.  In my opinion it's no different to demanding all muslims apologise for ISIS.

But the majority of people don't demand that all muslims apologise for ISIS. Only arseholes do. In the same way that only arseholes would make out that trans people are 'responsible' for  sex offenders who identify as trans.

I'm not going to pretend that there aren't complications around the sharing of safe spaces between cis and trans women - but those complications primarily exist around the most fringe of cases (and in most people's experiences, only hypothetically). While I know this isn't confined to the bathroom/changing-room parts of the conversation, I think they're worth extrapolating from - and from what I've seen and heard from a lot of women I know, most of the time, cis women don't have an issue with sharing space with trans women. After all, they share a common danger from being attacked by cis men. What a lot of it seems to come down to is the principle of the thing - 'if we allow this, then where does it end?', which is the kind of thin-end-of-the-wedge argument that's really difficult to argue effectively against, because the worst of the worst are treated as if they're representative of the majority.

Really, do we want a society where people have to produce a certificate to get access to regularly used spaces (and spaces that, for the most part, trans people *have* been using for years without issue)? And how does this work in reality anyway?  I get the fear - the fear is of cis men taking advantage. But self-ID isn't really the issue here, as it's not like people are going to start demanding papers (or that the people they're most concerned about are going to be dissuaded by a legal technicality).

On a personal basis, most of the people I'm aware of who have been interested in identifying as fluidly non-binary were born as women. It's not so much a 'oh, I'll decide to identify as a woman when it's useful or appealing' - it's an awareness that their own gender identity can fluctuate for a number of reasons. One of them being that the common societal markers for masculine and feminine behaviour don't consistently fit. For some, it seems to be a case of identifying with whichever seems the least 'wrong' at that point. Also, some people just dislike using mx, ze, them, etc. They acknowledge different elements of their personality, and sometimes feel more one than the other. It's really not a 'Ooh, is it lippy or a tie and braces today?' thing.

I do understand the fear. But being aware of how many trans people are being told that both male and female spaces aren't appropriate for them, and how much risk of attack trans people have to live with, is why so many people think that trans people live with far more risk than they present.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Chris B