Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[DavidB6937]

29 minutes ago, Tamura said:

Call me a cynic if you like, but I'm more inclined to think WWE released a couple of developmental talents they had no real long term, or even short term what with coronavirus, plans for at a convenient moment. Rather than the "OMG WWE are firing everyone because of coronavirus" they are looking like the good guys who take these kinds of allegations seriously, and if  allegations were later made against someone they really, really wanted to keep they can point back to firing Banks and Ligero as evidence they act when they are satisfied the allegations are true.

Oh I've said exactly the same thing on social media and to mates in conversation - losing those 2 guys means absolutely nothing to them and it's basically a quick 'win' for them in this overall situation. While it'll probably take a lot for them to actually get rid of a big name like Dream or even Devlin. So yeah I get it. I guess only time will tell.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

You've spent the last 6 hours scouring the forum for ammunition. Well done Matlock. Whatever you have found does not change the faaaacts that that video is still awful and ill judged. 

[PowerButchi]

10 minutes ago, IANdrewDiceClay said:

He obviously cant be talking about me and Butch, considering we did everything but making her a cup of tea before Emmerdale in that thread. She wanted to be real life friends with us.

Me and Pinky were friends on Facebook after that. All those shout outs we got on her videos.

 

Great days. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by PowerButchi

[forlan]

5 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

You've spent the last 6 hours scouring the forum for ammunition. Well done Matlock. Whatever you have found does not change the faaaacts that that video is still awful and ill judged. 

Sorry I saw that this morning but had things to do through the day so only got a chance to post after speaking to some people about it

In the thread for example a woman being referred to as a slag and Eric Bischoff in drag and allsorts.

That is not what I would describe as tolerant.. inclusive or anything upholding to what values this thread and worldwide movements as of late are.

[Yakashi]

To me it just seems like the big companies aren’t saying anything because they don’t want to bring attention to it for self serving reasons. They don’t want to be associated with it in any way. I mean, it didn’t even crack any sort of google trends I don’t think so they know that most people don’t even know it happened.

I guess I just hoped there’d be a statement about how they’re listening and how they will strive to make everyone safe etc. To be honest though, I know that would just be PR as well actually so really it’s a lose lose because they’re all heartless carries at the end of the day and they all, Tony Khan included despite what some seem to think, care more about money than their employees and independent contractors. So I’d never believe it anyway!

I just hope something comes of it. I think most people are a bit ashamed to be wrestling fans now. Take away the lol it’s fake ribbing from people. This story, Saudi, covid, drugs etc etc etc. I think most of us are just sick of it and all want actual change. I think most of us know it’s not going to happen though.

[Michael_3165]

2 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

To me it just seems like the big companies aren’t saying anything because they don’t want to bring attention to it for self serving reasons. They don’t want to be associated with it in any way. I mean, it didn’t even crack any sort of google trends I don’t think so they know that most people don’t even know it happened.

I guess I just hoped there’d be a statement about how they’re listening and how they will strive to make everyone safe etc. To be honest though, I know that would just be PR as well actually so really it’s a lose lose because they’re all heartless carries at the end of the day and they all, Tony Khan included despite what some seem to think, care more about money than their employees and independent contractors. So I’d never believe it anyway!

I just hope something comes of it. I think most people are a bit ashamed to be wrestling fans now. Take away the lol it’s fake ribbing from people. This story, Saudi, covid, drugs etc etc etc. I think most of us are just sick of it and all want actual change. I think most of us know it’s not going to happen though.

Tbh it doesn't surprise me at all. Keep quiet, don't rock the boat, wait for it to pass. That's the WWE mentality right?  

[Yakashi]

Just now, forlan said:

Sorry I saw that this morning but had things to do through the day so only got a chance to post after speaking to some people about it

In the thread for example a woman being referred to as a slag and Eric Bischoff in drag and allsorts.

That is not what I would describe as tolerant.. inclusive or anything upholding to what values this thread and worldwide movements as of late are.

That would be well and good but Mike has done this gimmick before. The “sorry I’m a cunt, I’m really sorry and I’m going to grow as a person”. Thing is, you can only do that so many times before you’re actually just a cunt.

Playing the whataboutism game with people on this forum only works if they said horrid mysoginistic things in that thread, did the solidarity thing in this thread, but then shit all over women again in the future. Seeing as how you ain’t Marty McFly, I don’t see how you think it’s comparable? People are allowed to change. It’s when they say they’ve changed but then they’re really just the same prick as before where the argument falls down.

[DavidB6937]

2 minutes ago, forlan said:

Sorry I saw that this morning but had things to do through the day so only got a chance to post after speaking to some people about it

In the thread for example a woman being referred to as a slag and Eric Bischoff in drag and allsorts.

That is not what I would describe as tolerant.. inclusive or anything upholding to what values this thread and worldwide movements as of late are.

Say you're right. Say that everyone on here is a complete arsehole. That we're not tolerant. That we hate women. That we say horrendous things and do horrendous things and whatever else.

Say we're the scum of the Earth. The lowest of the low.

Imagine all of that. Imagine we're all absolute fucking filth.

It still doesn't change a thing about your man does it? It doesn't change what he's done or how he's reacted to it or anything like that.

In short: stop trying to find fucking loopholes. Stop trying to throw the blame somewhere else. Stop trying to twist peoples words or catch them out or whatever else you're trying to fucking do to avoid facing the facts. It's not going to work.

[Keith Houchen]

37 minutes ago, forlan said:

I saw a link to an old thread about kip James and was appalled at the lack of respect shown to women by people who i see are also posting in this thread.

Which people?

[PowerButchi]

I'm guilty of it. It's pretty embarrassing in hindsight. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by PowerButchi

[Chris B]

It's weird how it's being treated like there was this long, in-depth discussion of Quackenbush on this forum and that it's driven what's happened. When the biggest part of it has been so many wrestlers and people involved with Chikara resigning that it's had to close down. After that, it's mainly been reactions to the video. This is a weird conversation.

In the meantime, I've talked in this thread before about how the culture has changed in fandom, and particularly in this place. Again, back in the early-2000s, 'she's a crack-whore' was an expected chant at a ring-announcer. Pile-on threads and wind-ups were pretty common, and misogynistic language was definitely more common. And yeah, as per the other post linking to it, there's a bunch of unpleasant stuff in there (including from me) and it's cringeworthy to look back on, even in the context of a wind-up.

But there are two big differences:

1 - This is a fan forum. We're not owners, bookers, trainers, promoters, etc (well, except for the Bowlers and so on). We are, most of us, not in a position of authority within wrestling. And, as you'll have likely seen, at least one member who IS a promoter has come in for pretty heavy criticism.

2 - Learning and changing your behaviour doesn't make you a hypocrite.

We've seen enormous changes in fandom and in culture. Change is a good thing. The whole point of #MeToo was how prevalent stuff like this was, and how much of a difference attitudes towards women made. It's about personal responsibility as well as expecting it from others. I've seen other people I know realise how we've all contributed to a toxic culture and have tried to change it. 

Part of this also comes in terms of what's now acceptable. Look at how chucklesome the "Flair in his robe on planes" story seemed to so many for years - just Flair being Flair. And now, most of us look at that and think 'ugh, that's actually really unpleasant and not how someone should act'.

Again, though - there's been fairly minor discussion about what Quackenbush actually did. There's been more about how bad the video seemed to come across. You seem determined to have an argument that nobody is actually having. If people had been coming down from the pulpit in terms of 'he used homophobic language years ago, fire him!', you might have a point. But it's more the position of authority people have an issue with, and the overall way people talk about the culture he was a big part of.

All you have to do is look at the response to Sammy Guevara in terms of accceptability and the past. Most are saying a severe slap on the wrist and learning is about appropriate. If it had been Tony Khan or HHH saying it, you'd be expecting them to be held to a very different level.

[forlan]

16 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

That would be well and good but Mike has done this gimmick before. The “sorry I’m a cunt, I’m really sorry and I’m going to grow as a person”. Thing is, you can only do that so many times before you’re actually just a cunt.

Playing the whataboutism game with people on this forum only works if they said horrid mysoginistic things in that thread, did the solidarity thing in this thread, but then shit all over women again in the future. Seeing as how you ain’t Marty McFly, I don’t see how you think it’s comparable? People are allowed to change. It’s when they say they’ve changed but then they’re really just the same prick as before where the argument falls down.

The issue with Mike is that most of this stuff is talking about further in the past its not saying he said sorry then did it yesterday it is talking about back then. 

It is also worth noting the main person who is sharing the stuff about Mike works for czw yet won't call them out on all the things they have done like dj Hyde etc. 

 

Don't get me wrong I am not saying the people in that thread are like that now and have not changed I am just saying if they believe they changed how can they not believe someone else did. 

I don't see anyone bringing up Steve austin beating up women because he says he has changed why did Common courtesy not stretch to everyone in that regard? 

[Surf Digby]

4 minutes ago, forlan said:

 

I don't see anyone bringing up Steve austin beating up women because he says he has changed why did Common courtesy not stretch to everyone in that regard? 

I don't remember a culture of people making excuses for Steve Austin's violence toward women, or him trying to downplay it by saying how someone else did something much worse to somebody somewhere.

[DavidB6937]

9 minutes ago, forlan said:

I don't see anyone bringing up Steve austin beating up women because he says he has changed why did Common courtesy not stretch to everyone in that regard? 

Again you're just trying to deflect to other people/situations.

Do you really expect everyone to recall every single time a wrestler did something bad? Because we're going to be here a really fucking long time.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

40 minutes ago, forlan said:

That is not what I would describe as tolerant.. inclusive or anything upholding to what values this thread and worldwide movements as of late are.

Well to be fair, you should expect less of a bunch of 20 year olds on a wrestling forum than 40 year old bloke making "leave Britney alone" videos in repsonse to sexual abuse claims.