Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 I follow a number of historians on Twitter and not one has said that statues are one of the most important links to the past. They seem more interested in pointing out that the toppling of monuments to racists is creating history itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ReturnOfTheMack Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 I used a fair few statues when studying history. Found loads of photos of all the ones I needed, and from multiple angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, unfitfinlay said: "Muslims force Subway to ban Bacon!!!!!!" Didn't want to fucking go in there anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Astro Hollywood Posted June 13, 2020 Moderators Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Loki said: There are museums up and down this country you can visit.  For the cost of a ticket to London Self-own. Education should be for everyone, not just those with the means. Quote You’ve all decided to make this about class, and about yourselves.  I personally think that an interest in history and art isn’t limited to one class Make your mind up. Edited June 13, 2020 by Astro Hollywood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 I'll just accept then that Loki isn't going to answer my question and I'll just move on from the matter as it's not what this thread is about. As you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: Loki, I don't think anyone has "personally attacked" you, don't be all Mountevans about it. Your responses were classist, condescening and very, very patronising. And you're still doing it, now reflecting it back, as in the bolded bit above. Don't get all defensive because you've been called out on it. Well, with respect, your responses have been classist and patronising in equal measure.  If I came across as condescending then I apologise, but it certainly wasn't one way.  I'm as entitled to express an opinion as anyone else here, and it's not exactly conducive to a good discussion to dismiss them if they're different from yours on this topic. The topping of statues is definitely of historical significance!  I just hope that it doesn't spread into some free-for-all that we'll regret in 20 years time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Loki said: Well, with respect, your responses have been classist and patronising in equal measure. Â If I came across as condescending then I apologise, but it certainly wasn't one way Would you like to point to where I was classist in expressing that education should be freely accessible to all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, Loki said: You’ve all decided to make this about class, and about yourselves.  I personally think that an interest in history and art isn’t limited to one class, and it’s patronising to pretend it is.  I suspect the vast majority of people who visit museums and galleries aren’t upper class twits but just regular people who want to experience things in person.  To drag this away from personal attacks and back to the topic, my original point was that tearing down statues does little to help social inequity but does destroy things that might have cultural value beyond just celebrating a figure’s life. It becomes about class when you talk about how travelling the world is the best way to learn about history and that people should try it, and that statues being torn down threatens that. When you talk about 'I can go to Paris... I can go to Rome...' - you're clearly an educated person who has the means to travel. As someone else with an interest in art and history who has done my fair share of travelling and visiting museums, I think they're wonderful things. But I'll acknowledge my privilege while doing so. I also think the focus should be on people who don't already have access to these things, because otherwise you're preaching to the converted. Also, nobody is travelling to fucking Bristol on holiday on a slavery-education jolly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited)  3 minutes ago, Chris B said: It becomes about class when you talk about how travelling the world is the best way to learn about history and that people should try it, and that statues being torn down threatens that. When you talk about 'I can go to Paris... I can go to Rome...' - you're clearly an educated person who has the means to travel. As someone else with an interest in art and history who has done my fair share of travelling and visiting museums, I think they're wonderful things. But I'll acknowledge my privilege while doing so. I also think the focus should be on people who don't already have access to these things, because otherwise you're preaching to the converted. Also, nobody is travelling to fucking Bristol on holiday on a slavery-education jolly. Fair enough, I accept that.  I absolutely didn't mean it was the ONLY way to learn about history, but it is a good one if you are able to do so - is that better?  I will absolutely acknowledge my privilege but it doesn't mean that because that's not available to all, it's invalid and doesn't have value and so shouldn't be protected. Edited June 13, 2020 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Loki said: Fair enough, I accept that.  I absolutely didn't mean it was the ONLY way to learn about history, but it is a good one if you are able to do so - is that better?  I will absolutely acknowledge my privilege but it doesn't mean that because that's not available to all, it's invalid and doesn't have value and so shouldn't be protected. It's definitely better. And I'll go back to my point that not all statues are worth protecting. And defacing statues can be a worthwhile protest. There's not a serious movement to tear down all statues or stop talking about the people the statues are of - just about moderating the glorification, because it's really not a great way of learning. One act of temporarily defacing that statue has done a shit-ton more to get people talking about Churchill's past than the statue being there for decades. I think the conversation has turned that way because it's a much easier media talking point - "Are statues worthwhile? Here's Nigel Farage and Harry Enfield to debate it" is an easier piece of content than systemic racism and oppression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Chris B said: I think the conversation has turned that way because it's a much easier media talking point - "Are statues worthwhile? Here's Nigel Farage and Harry Enfield to debate it" is an easier piece of content than systemic racism and oppression. It's rank, but not surprising, just how quickly the conversation switched to this, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Statues aren't really historical in terms of education, they are celebratory. Â The distinction needs to be made between art and commemorative. Â Usually with a historical statue there is text accompanying it to explain who the person was, or indeed what event is being commemorated. Â I've learned stuff from statues, it's been an introduction to a person or an event that I knew nothing about, then I'd find out more if I was so inclined. Â But I guess that's the difference between a celebratory statue and a commemorative statue. Slave traders and racist warmongers shouldn't be celebrated. Whilst not everyone can afford it, Loki is right about visiting the capital and its many free museums and galleries. Â I can have a day out in that London travelling from Manchester for about 30 quid if I get the megabus and a day pass for the tube. Â Well worth it. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 1 hour ago, NorthSeaTiger said: I live in Aberdeen. So a return flight, accommodation, tickets, food etc are more desirable to you than just simply opening a book from my local library or searching online? Do they even have the internet in Aberdeen? Get on a bus and come to the big smoke. Make a day of it. We've got museums, books, statues and all manner of futuristic stuff here.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 26 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Whilst not everyone can afford it, Loki is right about visiting the capital and its many free museums and galleries.  I can have a day out in that London travelling from Manchester for about 30 quid if I get the megabus and a day pass for the tube.  Well worth it. I mean, what else are you going to do in London; go to Pret A Manger? Or have you got them 'up there'? Absolutely cannot wait to see all the condemnation of the statue shaggers fighting with the police today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted June 13, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted June 13, 2020 Good old patriots that are making sure we all know they aren’t racist and all lives matter FullSizeRender.mov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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