#BlackLivesMatter

[Teedy Kay]

14 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Your emphasis of 'after' here really troubles me far more than anything else you've said on this subject and I'm surprised nobody else has picked up on it since youposted. And I'm not going to elaborate on why because nothing you have said in this thread suggests to me that you will understand why it's so troubling anyway. I just hope that one day you do get it.

I understand that emphasising a word that clearly conflicts with 1500 die IN police custody can be vitally important.

[Mr_Danger]

I appreciate the lengths you’ve gone to to defend your profession and the efforts you’ve made to construct your argument but you could save a hell of a lot of time by just admitting that the use of force isn’t spot on and whilst maybe better than many other countries it still needs work.

Anecdotally I don’t think all coppers are cunts and I see a few engaging with the yoof around here and clearly there’s good with the bad but I wish they’d stop sending their rejects to my office. Two ex coppers I work with, one is the laziest person in the office who went on the sick the day she was here long enough to be paid sick leave and the other is shit at FIFA and crashed in to a car crash whilst rubber necking and was mocked by his former colleagues who were on the scene attending to the first crash.

[SuperBacon]

Whilst it's clear how I feel about the police, I realise that my contributions haven't been great today, and I don't want to be someone who just pops in and has nothing of value to say (too easy a joke, leave it alone)

I don't have police 'data' to back up what I say, and I don't have a police officers POV of just how 'spot on' they've got their use of force in this country.

What I do have is 15 years+ experience of youth work and mentoring (mostly voluntary), including 6 years as a paid Youth Engagement/Community Development worker.

I won't name the areas I've worked or volunteered in, but they have pretty much all had high levels of deprivation, and I have witnessed dozens of times the police have got it badly wrong and have heard hundreds, possibly in the thousands, of first hand accounts and testimonials of over excessive force, racial profiling, bias, prejudice (corroborated by numerous witnesses) and have seen the harm that the police can do in these areas and the destruction of lives in the Black community (Not limited to though; I've seen travellers be treated and spoken about appallingly too)

I have had parents of young Black men openly weep in front of me, scared not only for what other people might do to them because of where they are from or who they are, but also cry at the thought of them being caught by the police and dealt with for something they haven't done. I've seen the fear etched on young boys and girls faces when they are confronted by a police officer, even in normal conversation. 

It's frightening and it's wrong. I don't have the answers to the problems within the police force, I don't know if anyone does to be quite honest, but it is clear that a radical overhaul needs to happen and happen soon.

I can't sit quietly whilst someone claims that the police in this country have got their use of force "spot on", when it's simply not the case. I will always believe the stories and voices of those that I have known personally and have been subjected to it, rather than someone who I don't know and was not giving any valid points.

Summoning up: Less police, more community based work.

[Teedy Kay]

What's amazing, although from completely polar opposite viewpoints is this.

We both ardently agree that community based work is so vitally important to ever rescuing this. And funds need to be hurled in its direction. If Black Lives Matter does that I'll take a knee next to you all.

[Keith Houchen]

But you'll only take a knee in that scenario?  Why not now?

 

EDIT - 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Keith Houchen
ACAB

[Cousin Jim Bob]

Christ that police woman smirking and laughing. Fucking hell. 

[Chest Rockwell]

1 hour ago, Teedy Kay said:

If Black Lives Matter does that I'll take a knee next to you all.

So, I take from this that you don't support the protests? What's your reason for that?

If you're not a racist then I can only assume it's because you don't think there's a problem worth protesting about. So again you're doubling down on dismissing black peoples' experiences and telling them that you know better.

People don't get this angry for no reason, but overwhelmingly the response from law enforcement is to get defensive and dismissive and close ranks. You throw your hands up in your last post and say you have no idea how to solve the problem now that it's so far gone so maybe you should be a bit more receptive to some new ideas.

Edit: a succinct way to frame something that I don't think you've grasped has occured to me; the extent to which the police are not the totality of the subject here. These protests are about injustice. Sometimes injustice is illegal sometimes it's not. The police, by definition, have nothing to do with justice. You are concerned only with the law.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Chest Rockwell

[Keith Houchen]

7 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

you're doubling down on dismissing black peoples' experiences and telling them that you know better.

This is all too commonplace. I don’t know if it’s wilful ignorance, white privilege or outright racism but there seems to be a lot of people saying they can’t understand why a black guy with a criminal record in the US dying whilst being arrested has prompted protest. George Floyd isn’t an isolated incident, it’s the one that broke the camels back. Over here, Grenfell residents still haven’t been rehoused, Windrush showed how much legal status matters to some when it comes to black skin. 
 

The best example I’ve seen was some white woman bemoaning BLM calling them troublemakers and then, she simultaneously understood and dismissed BLM by amazingly stating “If I was to be stopped by the police or arrested it would be because I did something wrong and not because of my skin colour”

[Sphinx]

3 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Your emphasis of 'after' here really troubles me far more than anything else you've said on this subject and I'm surprised nobody else has picked up on it since youposted. And I'm not going to elaborate on why because nothing you have said in this thread suggests to me that you will understand why it's so troubling anyway. I just hope that one day you do get it.

I don't understand this. It'd be more help to outline why you think that the word is problematic. It's happened a few times in this thread where people have said that they're not gonna respond or that they shouldn't have to. If you want to debate and hope to change minds then I think you need to do more than that.

I'm guessing you mean the word 'after' is troubling because the policing has done nothing to help and has possibly contributed to the suicide whereas when he's using the word 'after' the implication is that the police had nothing to do with it? Maybe I've interpreted it wrong, in which case it'd be interesting to read what you mean. I think it's better to have a more fleshed out argument than just leaving it hanging as it gives off an aura of moral and intellectual superiority.

[SuperBacon]

30 minutes ago, Sphinx said:

It's happened a few times in this thread where people have said that they're not gonna respond or that they shouldn't have to.

Your post is spot on, and this bit in particular is something I have done, and it was a bit childish of me.

It's not that I refuse to engage in debate with someone, as this is what this place is good for and I like a discussion, it's that I really didn't see why I should have had to provide examples, when that person in that profession couldn't and didn't.

That'd be like a thread called "All ex recruitment consultants are cunts" and me popping in and going "Nah, their headhunt policies are pretty spot on actually", and leaving it at that. If I believe that strongly in what I do*, I'll try and back that up with something substantial. Just my opinion though.

*I don't. They are all absolute cunts.

[Merzbow]

Anyway.. what's the reasoning behind putting this report out? They had to know it'd stir things up even more.
 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Merzbow

[Chris B]

1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said:

Grenfell residents still haven’t been rehoused

And while I know you know all this, let's not forget the way the tower-blocks didn't have the protective cladding, and how the socio-economic elements were part of that. And also, how Jacob Rees-Mogg showed just how much it was about that by talking about how if they'd had 'common sense', they wouldn't have listened to the emergency services - reminding everyone that listening to authority is an option for people like him.

It's easy to assume this is just a class thing, but in parts of London especially, it really isn't. And the budget has been cut for so many things that people in areas like that rely on.

EDIT:

And not to get too AND ANOTHER THING, but that the government that did this, and did so little to help afterwards, then went further to the right and we have an open racist as Prime Minister, while another open racist is president of the US. It's no wonder it's the last straw. This has been coming for a long time.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Chris B

[Jonny Vegas]

9 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

Yes, and I stand by that. 

Edit: Actually, was bastards, but they're cunts as well.

Out of interest, are you the former JobberToTheStars?

Over the course of my life I've came into the contact of Police a fair few times with different circumstances, sometimes for the supposed purpose helping of me or people close to me and sometimes not.

Some of them were absolutely brilliant, some of them served their supposed intended purpose and some of them were just cunts.

I'm all for arguments/discussions/opinions on the matter.

On the one hand if I were to put a % on the cops I'd had dealings with who were cunts I wouldn't say it was any higher a % than that of any other occupation I had encountered. 

On the other hand I appreciate that those who work in retail, office or service jobs etc are significantly less likely to be able to make decisions or take actions in life or death type situations.

My opinion is cops take the wage and know the responsibility and pressures of the job so have to be accepting of that. 

As a personal comparison or example I've came into contact with a lot of Doctor's and nurse's over the course of my life and have witnessed what I would say was a worrying amount of them that had horrific attitudes towards their job or their patients.

The NHS is over stretched and under funded without doubt but so are all the emergency services.

I've seen Doctor's being entirely dismissive of people I felt were in urgent need of their help. I've seen Doctor's call people time waster's, attention seekers, drains on society.

I've seen nurses talking down to people and belittling them for such minor things as asking for a glass of water.

I've known multiple people who killed themselves because Doctor's told them if they had any intention of killing themselves they would have done it.

I've been aware of nurses who were sacked or resigned over allegations of sexual and physical misconduct towards patients with an array of vulnerabilities.

Millions of people were still out clapping for those Doctor's and nurses along with the rest of the NHS workers who as an overall collective group do an amazing job.

I've seen people in job centre's laughing and joking about the misfortune's of the unemployed.

I've seen teachers describing children as "no hopers" and "little cunts".

I know social workers who have laughed and bragged about actions they've taken or things they've been involved in that made traumatic situations worse and not better.

Some people are cunts and it doesn't matter what profession they do. That's human nature sadly.

The sweeping and dismissive generalisation that tens of thousands of people from a vast array of genders, races, ages, sexes, backgrounds, religions and cultures are all cunts, bastards, racists, etc. just because of their job or the collective policies or actions of their employer is in my opinion at best petulant and at worst full on ignorance.

Creating a "them and us" rhetoric can't possibly help.

Some cops are bastards and fuck each and every single one of them who is but I'm not going to class every single person who does that for a living as the same.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jonny Vegas

[Keith Houchen]

It isn’t a case of what type of person you are but a case of what job you do. I’m sure some plod are wonderful people but they have chosen to work for an institutionally racist organisation that act without impunity when it comes to the very thing they are meant to uphold. It’s the job, not the individual. The system, not the salary. That’s what ACAB is, they’ve chosen which side they’re on. As Chest said, ir isn’t the side of justice, it’s the side of law, and the law isn’t just. 
 

If you have 10 bad cops and 990 who don’t turn them in, you have 1000 bad cops. 

[Jonny Vegas]

I agree on the point that a cop who doesn't turn in the ones who are doing stuff they shouldn't are just as bad as those doing it. 100%.

If you or anyone else believes that every single person in that job is either active or complicit in wrongdoing though I think respectively, thats a wild opinion.

How could the organisation and its many faults ever be changed if anyone who joins it is seen as "choosing a side" and being by default a bastard.

I don't know much about the law but I'd like some examples of laws that are unjust or are in their design systematically discriminatory?

For clarification, I'm not saying they aren't, I'm just not aware of them and I'd like to know of some examples that led to your opinion so I can decide whether I agree or not.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Jonny Vegas