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Michael_3165

#BlackLivesMatter

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7 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

This is so very nearly "You can't say anything anymore!" 

The article talks about bias when talking about Black players. All the information is in the article. It's a Guardian article, it's not particularly high brow to be honest. I'm not holding your hand through it.

I don't know what else to say really. I can't add anything else other than what I wrote about my own guilt of using particular phrases when talking about Black players, and how that's an unchecked/unconscious bias of mine.

It's not that you can't say anything though is it? It's that we highlight athletic ability and strength and it's not quite enough. Even though those are brilliant traits to have. I guess intelligence comments that are directed at white players compared to black players could be racially motivated though it may just be a reflection of what the analyser sees as intelligent game play. Again we are making assumptions about the intention of comments without being able to mind read the person saying it. 

I admit though that it's disgusting how there's 5% representation for black and minority commentators/analysers in football. That's mental given the percentages that are former footballers. That is likely a contributory factor for the lop sided praise too. Surely it should be much more widely distributed ethnicities in non footballer roles?

Edited by Michael_3165

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16 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

This column of yours should be some read.

23 days in the making. Should be a cracker.

6 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

It's not that you can't say anything though is it? It's that we highlight athletic ability and strength and it's not quite enough. Even though those are brilliant traits to have. I guess intelligence comments that are directed at white players compared to black players could be racially motivated though it may just be a reflection of what the analyser sees as intelligent game play. Again we are making assumptions about the intention of comments without being able to mind read the person saying it. 

I admit though that it's disgusting how there's 5% representation for black and minority commentators/analysers in football. That's mental given the percentages that are former footballers. That is likely a contributory factor for the lop sided praise too. Surely it should be much more widely distributed ethnicities in non footballer roles?

I didn't say that. You were the one that started on about "Should we just not praise?" 

 

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28 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

23 days in the making. Should be a cracker.

I didn't say that. You were the one that started on about "Should we just not praise?" 

 

If you can't be polite I'd not bother speaking to me at all. I'm not all that interested what you have to say. 

You didn't respond to my points other than criticise which is typical really... 

Also I asked a question, I didn't make a statement. 

On a side note I've decided against the column purely because I won't recite the usual lines. They can get someone who will say what they want but that's not me. Maybe I should stick to less emotive subjects. Though in 2020 that's getting a narrower and narrower remit. Covering bin collections in the local rag is an emotional minefield! 

Edited by Michael_3165

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10 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

On a side note I've decided against the column purely because I won't recite the usual lines.

Hot Fuzz Shame GIF

Are you a paid journalist?

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52 minutes ago, Michael_3165 said:

It's not that you can't say anything though is it? It's that we highlight athletic ability and strength and it's not quite enough. Even though those are brilliant traits to have. I guess intelligence comments that are directed at white players compared to black players could be racially motivated though it may just be a reflection of what the analyser sees as intelligent game play. Again we are making assumptions about the intention of comments without being able to mind read the person saying it. 

I'm going to assume naivety on your part rather than intellectual dishonesty.

As with everything to do with the current situation, it is important to contextualise, instead of trying to apply a blanket rule across the board. Highlighting athletic ability and strength would be enough if it hadn't historically been a signifier via which to effectively imply that black people are effectively inferior in intelligence and only useful as physical labourers, which is exactly what was used to justify slavery. Using the term "beast" is basically a condensation of that concept into a word, and carries extra implied weight of racism because of how black people were dehumanised and dubbed "beasts" or "monkeys" or whatever other objectionable nomenclature used to label them as "lower species" was used to, again, justify slavery. There are many examples of this, ranging from the Belgians putting up "human zoos" of black people whereby jolly white Europeans could pay to see the "animals" in cages, to the police beating black men to death in custody while making monkey noises.

We make assumptions about the intention of the comments because they are part of a continuum, not isolated incidents. There is enough data throughout decades of football reporting to demonstrate that there is a tendency to subconsciously use references to animalism and "beasts" and other related terms when describing black players, that it is not a stretch to make assumptions. There's a point past which it becomes obvious to anyone acting in good faith.

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On 6/29/2020 at 11:38 PM, SuperBacon said:

This is really interesting, and I'll be absolutely honest something I have been guilty of.

Countless times I've seen a black player dominate midfield (I'm thinking of Yaya Toure for some reason) and referred to them as a "beast" or similar, and that is the very definition of unconscious racism, in that I am not being racist directly, I'm playing with a trope and giving it validation.

Something that needs to be checked and corrected.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/29/groundbreaking-report-reveals-racial-bias-in-english-football-commentary

Sorry about quoting this so late, but I have only just caught up with this topic.

In one of the early "Secret Footballer" books, he goes into detail about something similar. Basically, he says that many (british)managers wont trust black players to play in the more creative, playmaker roles as they believe black players don't possess the intelligence to play there. I remember at the time thinking that it was bullshit, but when discussing it with the lads in the pub, Toure was the only black "playmaker" type player we could think of(at the time)

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Isn't there a similar trope in American Football? Where Quaterbacks are predominantly white. We've seen the way a player like Colin Kapernick has been pretty much pushed out of the game. Despite being a player of high quality. His high level of morality has in part allowed teams to find an excuse for not having him in their teams. Pointing to a perceived divisiveness that may or may not be part of his baggage. In short they just don't want to answer the tough questions that surround Kapernick.  Kam Newton, another high quality black Quaterback is also without a team at the moment.

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Kaepernick's Knee is basically today's equivalent of the '68 Olympics Podium Black Power Salute.

When you look at the examples that history is littered with when it comes to movements that bring positive change, the sad truth is that, in so many cases, those who make the first big moves end up being the "sacrificial lamb", with their careers and/or lives destroyed, ostracised and marginalised without remedy or benefit from the changes they helped instigate, and only truly remembered with the admiration and respect they deserved after they'd died, often broke and broken.

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1 hour ago, BigJag said:

Kam Newton, another high quality black Quaterback is also without a team at the moment.

Cam Newton signed with the Patriots at the weekend on a prove it deal.  It's a totally different situation to Kaepernick though as he's coming off two consecutive seasons where he was badly injured and didn't play full seasons.

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23 hours ago, Nexus said:

I thought Clive Tyldsley's response on Twitter was fairly measured, as well:

 

 

"Far too much commentary is lazy and thoughtless. What do you think?"

river.thumb.jpeg.e944ae10a41015f48b9f67fbf94cef55.jpeg

"Not for me, Clive"

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2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

 

Kaepernick's Knee is basically today's equivalent of the '68 Olympics Podium Black Power Salute.

 

Im sure I’m not the only one who has seen them but during the last few months I’ve seen articles promoted concerning “What happened to the white guy in the picture” stories. I thought it summed up a lot of movements. Peter Norman seemed like a top guy but these articles were like “Smith and Carlos May have changed things but the white man was very important too”

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45 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Im sure I’m not the only one who has seen them but during the last few months I’ve seen articles promoted concerning “What happened to the white guy in the picture” stories. I thought it summed up a lot of movements. Peter Norman seemed like a top guy but these articles were like “Smith and Carlos May have changed things but the white man was very important too”

It's a difficult one, because Norman was put through a lot of shit for his support, and I don't want to be dismissive of his suffering for being a good ally, but yeh - it does seem like there's a running attempt to deflect or dilute sometimes.

If I were to assume good faith on the part of the people posting these articles, I'd say that it would be because, unlike back then when allies were very thin on the ground and the black community were almost up against it on their own, there's a much wider movement now with more white people willing to fight, and perhaps they want to encourage greater ally involvement by posting examples of historical instances.

Another problem there is that, like the abolition of slavery, there's a tendency to devolve into self-backslapping rather than introspection and reflection on one's social responsibilities.

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1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

If I were to assume good faith on the part of the people posting these articles, I'd say that it would be because, unlike back then when allies were very thin on the ground and the black community were almost up against it on their own, there's a much wider movement now with more white people willing to fight, and perhaps they want to encourage greater ally involvement by posting examples of historical instances.

That's pretty much how I've taken it as well, and it is a great story and example. However, it's a bit frustrating to have seen that article shared a lot more than anything about the actual movement at the time. It's a bit HOW THIS WHITE GUY SOLVED RACISM by helping this black equality movement.

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Yeah, I think the story of Peter Norman is meant in good faith when published , but it comes out as the white saviour issue in articles. 

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