Snitsky's back acne Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 9:20 AM, Liam O'Rourke said: Stevie is leagues ahead of Dreamer and Credible. Stevie as the clueless putz sidekick to Raven in 1995 was an awesome character. Stevie was excellent in 1995-1996. Just brilliant. Have to disagree about 'Come Out and Play' though. I thought it fit Raven perfectly. In fact ECW's music choices in general were pretty damn good and it genuinely does take something away from the shows on WWE Network that we don't get the original music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 21, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 21, 2021 For me, as a guy who learned about ECW from “Apter mags” and PS, bought the 3rd gen VHS copies and lived through the development from “that Indy people are talking about” to putting on a PPV, showing up on Bravo and legitimately becoming the #3 company in the West, I have my Mount Rushmore as Taz, Sabu, Raven and Dreamer. I was very tempted to include RVD because of the sheer impact of the buzz about “Have you seen some of the matches this guy is having?” that was propagated, but the two feuds that really “did it” for making ECW was Dreamer vs Raven and Taz vs Sabu. Dreamer vs Raven I’ve written about recently for absolute love of its execution and climax and was my favourite feud in wrestling from a storyline point of view until it was overtaken by the overlapping “Sting in the rafters” stuff on Nitro. I’d just started reading about ECW at the point Raven and Richards were wrestling the Pit Bulls regularly and I think around the time Beaulah debuted, the Cactus/Funk stuff was happening, Stevie had his match with Luna and loads of other stuff was happening and I remember reading “Dreamer has yet to defeat Raven in singles or tags” or similar and it just completely took on a life of its own. That was the story that hooked me and I know I wasn’t the only one. Even when Raven was feuding with Sandy or Dreamer was chasing The Franchise they were never far from butting heads again. “Dreamers always been shit” is a very popular opinion these days and limited as he was, I think it’s bizarre to pretend people didn’t absolutely love him at the time and support his quest to get one over his enemy and how cathartic it was when he finally put him away. Taz vs Sabu doesn’t need much elaboration beyond the bare facts. Lengthy build that had the fans clamouring to finally see them fight, main evented the first ECW PPV and was a major factor in Taz’ journey to becoming the top guy in the company, where he could have stayed for years if the WWF hadn’t come calling. 1 hour ago, Snitsky's back acne said: it genuinely does take something away from the shows on WWE Network that we don't get the original music. Could be worse. Some of the overdubs on the old VHS releases were so bad I often didn’t watch the tapes a second time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted April 21, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 21, 2021 I was only saying the other day that "Dreamer is awful" is revisionist history; he had years of being a hanger-on in an ECW shirt stealing a living, but before that, no one else would have worked in his spot. Dreamer vs Raven was of course brilliant, but Raven wasn't feuding with himself, was he? He was able to garner sympathy and support unlike anyone else in that company. His match with Lawler is one of my favourites, and while Lawler gets nuclear heat, that doesn't happen without a babyface that the audience 100% believed in. That match is part of my favourite thing about how Dreamer was booked as the ultimate "always the bridesmaid, never the bride" too. Literally seconds after finally beating Raven, Jerry Lawler shows up and batters him. It naturally moves him on to the next feud, but it also meant Tommy had absolutely no time to celebrate one of his few victories. The same happens pretty much every big win he gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) ECW's always that 'looking at it through rose coloured glasses' nostalgia for me. I LOVED it as a teenager. It was SO different and cool that I can forgive all of its faults even now just because of how fondly I think of it. I first saw pictures and write-ups in Powerslam when I was about 13 [I remember seeing photos of Axl vs Ian Rotten, Terry Funk vs Cactus Jack in as ring strewn with rubbish and Luna vs Stevie in a cage) and was blown away 'What IS this!?'. It's low budget, it looked grotty and dark and totally different to Doink the Clown and Henry Godwinn on WWF and The Dungeon of Doom in WCW. I HAD to get tapes of this! ... and after that I sought out tape traders and got as many shows as I could. It was absolutely of it's time but I don't care. I still watch the shows from time to time on the Network and (music aside) enjoy them just as much as I did as a teenager. Edited April 22, 2021 by Snitsky's back acne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) If only someone had been busy redubbing all the PPV's and a whole bunch of years of the TV show. Edited April 21, 2021 by Merzbow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gmoney Posted April 21, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 21, 2021 I'm not sure anyone goes around saying he wasn't over, but he's never been to my taste. Watching it back now, along with his style of wrestling aging very badly, he's an average to poor promo, but he's usually involved in interesting angles. He also did a lot of stuff that the crowd ate up; regularly beat up women, big table stunts, the threesome angle. He had good antagonists to work against in Raven, Cactus and Douglas, but you can't just be dragged to glory (see Justin Credible) so he must have had something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 21, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 21, 2021 55 minutes ago, BomberPat said: It naturally moves him on to the next feud, but it also meant Tommy had absolutely no time to celebrate one of his few victories. The same happens pretty much every big win he gets. Sure does. The Credible defeat that bookends the Awesome-Tazz disasterpiece was such a gut punch, I often forget Dreamer even won the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love-Wilcox Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 1 hour ago, air_raid said: Taz vs Sabu doesn’t need much elaboration beyond the bare facts. Lengthy build that had the fans clamouring to finally see them fight, main evented the first ECW PPV Wasn’t it Raven vs Funk that main evented that show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted April 21, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 21, 2021 Raven defending the title was on last, but Taz-Sabu was absolutely the main event in terms of advance hype: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted April 22, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 22, 2021 11 hours ago, Merzbow said: If only someone had been busy redubbing all the PPV's and a whole bunch of years of the TV show. thanks for that, ive been collecting that stuff bit by bit from elsewhere, but that link will be handy. Incredible work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted April 22, 2021 Paid Members Share Posted April 22, 2021 that Michinoku Pro six-man, incidentally, is one of my go-to choices for "what match would you show a non-fan to get them into wrestling?". It has the benefit of having no storyline going into it that you need to explain, and seeing all the talent involved basically get themselves over to a new audience reflects the experience of watching it for the first time at home. It has great wrestling, high spots, comedy, fun characters - you could do a lot worse. I'd actually be tempted to say that Taz vs. Sabu would be a good choice answer for the same question, if you wanted to try a different approach or if you knew the first-timer in question would be more won over by brawling and violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam O'Rourke Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, BomberPat said: I was only saying the other day that "Dreamer is awful" is revisionist history; he had years of being a hanger-on in an ECW shirt stealing a living, but before that, no one else would have worked in his spot. Dreamer vs Raven was of course brilliant, but Raven wasn't feuding with himself, was he? He was able to garner sympathy and support unlike anyone else in that company. His match with Lawler is one of my favourites, and while Lawler gets nuclear heat, that doesn't happen without a babyface that the audience 100% believed in. I'm not sure that's strictly true in the sense that it wasn't like the ECW crowd didn't rail on him first at the time, before he finally got where they wanted him to be, I don't think Dreamer is awful, but I do believe he was over more due to the opponents and the positions he was put in more than because he was exceptional in any way. Raven, Richards and Cactus absolutely carry the feud from a promo standpoint in 95, whereas Dreamer gets to hit piledrivers on Beulah repeatedly in the summer and do run-ins beating the shit out of everyone. Dreamer has moments where he was good in his role, for sure, but just as many moments where you see why it took a while for the ECW fans to get on board. Case in point, when he piledrives Beulah for the first time, he does Raven's pose and everybody is cheering and it's great. Then because they're reacting big, he starts doing Hulk Hogan's ear cupping to each side of the ring and looks like the biggest nerd. As for sympathy and support, Mikey Whipwreck during that same time I'd argue was as over as Dreamer, and probably moreso at points. Edited April 22, 2021 by Liam O'Rourke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) Wasn't Dreamers angle that he also wasn't accepted as tough by the sweaty smack heads in the crowd and he'd do all that crazy shit too to try and earn it. Think the caneing he gets from Sandman was the turn. By the time of 2000 he's the guy that never left. Your Sting or Tito depending. He's got a well shit cases of the HBK's when he's acting has young Thomas. Does that wrist/fist rolling action, and because of his appearance his Raven pose he adopted after in WWE just looked like a jacked fan. Listen to him shout EC fucking W in that win against Raven and try not to cringe. I don't mind him, I liked the ECW stuff, but besides that random cane match with Steven Richards in 2002. He's always looked a bloke with Matt Hardy's current walk, wearing enough PPV shirts to the Hebners wanted to know his style. Edited April 22, 2021 by Chili Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCW Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 I'm sure he's a nice lad, but anyone half decent would have slotted into the angles ECW used him in. Someone who was a better promo would have made them a lot more memorable too arguably. Even his 'I'm hardcore, I'll take em both' is shitly delivered. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam O'Rourke Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chili said: Wasn't Dreamers angle that he also wasn't accepted as tough by the sweaty smack heads in the crowd and he'd do all that crazy shit too to try and earn it. Think the caneing he gets from Sandman was the turn. Even then, fans are cheering for heel Sandman over Dreamer fairly frequently for the rest of the feud. Edited April 22, 2021 by Liam O'Rourke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.