The General Politics Thread v2.0 (AKA the "Labour are Cunts" thread)

[Merzbow]

Being America's one big ally in that part of the world sure helps, they're often called the 51st state of the USA.

[Jazzy G]

The US and UK were instrumental in getting the Israeli state established as well post World War II, so sometimes i think there's a bit of having to look the other way rather than admit that they were at least partially responsible for this whole thing in the first place. 

[BigJag]

Are you referring to the Balfour declaration? From memory that was cooked up in closed door meetings and then imposed via political machinations. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by BigJag

[CavemanLynn]

1 hour ago, jazzygeofferz said:

The US and UK were instrumental in getting the Israeli state established as well post World War II, so sometimes i think there's a bit of having to look the other way rather than admit that they were at least partially responsible for this whole thing in the first place. 

This is definitely a part of it, and, in my opinion, deliberate. Splitting the region and purposefully having a land wall of Israelis between two densely-populated areas of underprivileged Arabs was a surefire recipe for instability requiring constant "assistance" from the West.

I don't know much about the West Bank (though I can imagine Israel are warier going near it due to its closer proximity to powerful Arab allies) but within years of being established, Israel essentially reduced Gaza to an internment camp through naval blockades, military checkpoints, and physical walls. They've got the ability to raze Gaza to the ground, then control the rate and amount of aid that gets in afterwards.

They may argue tit for tat now, but when the US and UK stepped away, Israel made the first strike.

[BigJag]

I'd listened to this earlier this year. It goes some way to explaining the journey to the creation of Israel. A journey that involves Lawrence of Arabia and a couple of World Wars.

[Loki]

3 hours ago, CavemanLynn said:

I don't know much about the West Bank (though I can imagine Israel are warier going near it due to its closer proximity to powerful Arab allies) but within years of being established, Israel essentially reduced Gaza to an internment camp through naval blockades, military checkpoints, and physical walls. They've got the ability to raze Gaza to the ground, then control the rate and amount of aid that gets in afterwards.

In some respects it's the other way round.  Yes, Israel control what goes into or comes out of Gaza but within its bounds it's entirely run (or was run) by the Hamas "government".  There were no Israeli troops, or settlers inside Gaza at all.  So it was a surrounded but autonomous Palestinian region.  Within it there was freedom of movement etc.

The West Bank by contrast is nominally under the control of the official Palestinian, Fatah government but is where a lot of the day to day indignities happen.  The area is patchworked with illegal Jewish settlements, there are IDF roadblocks everywhere.  There are Israeli-only roads segregated from Palestinian traffic by concrete walls. If you want to do anything from go to work, to go to a (segregated) Palestinian hospital, you have to go through armed checkpoints.

 

 

[Keith Houchen]

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

The West Bank by contrast is nominally under the control of the official Palestinian, Fatah government but is where a lot of the day to day indignities happen.  The area is patchworked with illegal Jewish settlements, there are IDF roadblocks everywhere.  There are Israeli-only roads segregated from Palestinian traffic by concrete walls. If you want to do anything from go to work, to go to a (segregated) Palestinian hospital, you have to go through armed checkpoints

This is where the “It’s about getting rid of Hamas” argument falls down. The West Bank is where apartheid is rife and there’s no Hamas. 

[Vamp]

It's important to note that the UK, I don't know enough about the US context, has been rife with antisemitism for a very long time and at least some of the reason for why Israel was created was because the UK felt they deserved something, as long as it wasn't something too close. 

It doesn't help that WW2 has been retroactively made about saving Jewish people. That's not why Britain went to war. Yet its become part of the national identity. Neither side of the debate gives a toss about Jewish people. 

Ultimately, I realise I've probably said this before, this conflict will end one of 4 ways. One side eliminates the other,  both sides eliminate each other, things just carry on but we get bored of it and stop paying attention, a bunch of people who haven't been shot at get together and agree to peace. 

In case you're wondering which of the 4 it will be, it's the third. 

[BomberPat]

On 11/19/2023 at 11:30 AM, CavemanLynn said:

This is definitely a part of it, and, in my opinion, deliberate. Splitting the region and purposefully having a land wall of Israelis between two densely-populated areas of underprivileged Arabs was a surefire recipe for instability requiring constant "assistance" from the West.

You have to remember the Cold War context as well - very important for the US to have a strategic ally in the Middle East as a bulwark against Soviet influence, amid any number of proxy wars in the region. They might not be worried about Communism spreading through the Middle East any more, but they still want a strong ally there to push back against Arab nationalism, or a country like China getting undue influence in their absence. That's why a lot of the western propaganda around Israel is focused on it being "the only democracy in the Middle East".

[Carbomb]

One of the biggest ironies, of course, was that the Soviet Union was the first country to recognise Israel as a state. Presumably the kibbutzim movement played a big part in convincing them that Israel could be won over as an ally.

[Devon Malcolm]

-39.1%

[Jazzy G]

That's a heck of a swing. 

[Devon Malcolm]

It took him long enough!

 

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Is he actually trying to lose the next election?

[Keith Houchen]