Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: OK, that's the ones that quit sorted then and that's a POV I can see why people would take. If it was a meaningless vote, why were they sacked? To reinforce public perception of leadership and stability compared to Sunak (at a guess)?. Quote
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Devon Malcolm said: Starmer fans love that phrase in a number of contexts, don't they. It wasn't meaningless? What material difference to the Israel/Palestine conflict do you think the result would've made? We both know that deep down you know the answer is 'none'. Quote
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 Just now, Dead Mike said: We both know that deep down you know the answer is 'none'. No, but by all means keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about all this. Quote
Mr_Danger Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 We all know who Big K really answers to….. Quote
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Devon Malcolm said: No, but by all means keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better about all this. So you honestly think Hamas & Israel were going to be influenced by this parliamentary vote? Quote
Loki Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 Had every MP in the UK voted for an immediate ceasefire, it would have made absolutely 0 difference to the conflict. Behind the scenes, the UK government and the US government are pushing Israel incredibly hard to chage tactic, allow in humanitarian aid and yes, for a ceasefire. It's a long-used diplomatic tactic of putting your arms around your allies in public, and using the resulting influence in private. At the moment Israel isn't in a listening mood, they are still coming to terms with their citizens being raped, tortured and murdered whilst at a music festival. They're not listening to the UK PM or the US President, so they won't be at all interested in what the SNP has to say. At @Dead Mike rightly points out, in 12 months it's likely Starmer will be sitting in these meetings with Biden and Netanyahu, negotiating a vastly complex series of compromises to find a way forward for Palestinians, and so much of that will hinge on personal reputation and relationships. So he's starting to act like the PM he wants to be, not the opposition leader some want him to continue to be. Quote
Members SuperBacon Posted November 17, 2023 Members Posted November 17, 2023 On 11/15/2023 at 10:17 PM, SuperBacon said: The thing is, even if it doesn't lead to an immediate ceasefire and solution, I would still vote for it, just to not seem like a cunt who has voted AGAINST people dying unnecessarily. That's just me though. Even more relevant if it was a "meaningless" vote. Quote
Loki Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: The thing is, even if it doesn't lead to an immediate ceasefire and solution, I would still vote for it, just to not seem like a cunt who has voted AGAINST people dying unnecessarily. That's just me though. I think I would have too.... UNLESS I was a member of the shadow cabinet. Again, in 12 months these people are going to be cabinet ministers. Collective responsibility is a foundational element of the party political system and particularly the cabinet-style executive. As a cabinet minister (or in this case, shadow minister) you make your argument in private, and then a decision is made on the party line and you toe that line in public. Once these people are in government, they will have to adhere to collective responsibility or get the sack. Might as well start now. Edited November 17, 2023 by Loki Quote
Members SuperBacon Posted November 17, 2023 Members Posted November 17, 2023 It's either a meaningless vote or one where a whip was put on and sacking threatened. It can't be both. Everyone that voted for a ceasefire and quit did the right thing in my opinion. You can argue as to whether they did so to save their seat or whatever, that's fine. That's people's prerogative to do so. But for me they did the right thing. And saying "well they're gonna be in government so might as well start" isn't good enough for me. They're not in government now. They're in opposition now. Anyway that's enough thoughts of Starmer for me for today. I get enough of Arsenal fans through my ex and talking to Punkstep Quote
Keith Houchen Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Merzbow said: Did he ever stop being funded by Trevor Chinn? Or is it still anti-semitic to bring up the pro-israel lobbyists funding him and almost half of his cabinet? It’s not antisemitic to mention how one of the very top people on the NEC is literally a paid Zionist shill for Israeli interests? Or how LAAS head of media weaponised antisemitism by inventing a Jewish sounding pseudonym to make hundreds of bogus claims against the former leader? Quote
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 4 hours ago, Keith Houchen said: It’s not antisemitic to mention how one of the very top people on the NEC is literally a paid Zionist shill for Israeli interests? Or how LAAS head of media weaponised antisemitism by inventing a Jewish sounding pseudonym to make hundreds of bogus claims against the former leader? Is it antisemitic if Starmer asks Netanyahu to stop indisciminately murdering Palestinians when they sit down together when Starmer becomes PM? Because if so, maybe I see his point. Quote
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted November 17, 2023 Moderators Posted November 17, 2023 5 hours ago, Loki said: Had every MP in the UK voted for an immediate ceasefire, it would have made absolutely 0 difference to the conflict. I'm not buying that. Do you really think our representatives are pressuring Israel and the US as hard as they possibly can? Or just was much as they think they need to? It was public sentiment that got Suella sacked. If there was strong enough public sentiment to compel all MPs to vote for a ceasefire then you can bet they'd have to knock things up a notch if their publicly held position became untenable. Quote
Paid Members Carbomb Posted November 17, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 17, 2023 Normally, I agree, but Israel has demonstrated over the course of its history that, very often, it doesn't care what any other country thinks, even the US, its biggest patron. Bear in mind, this is a state that pulled a con trick to conceal its nuclear weapons programme from the UN's own inspectors by cementing and painting over the door to the weapons facility at Dimona power station until after they'd left. The only reason why anybody ever found out was because Mordechai Vanunu blew the whistle on them, and they faced no consequence ever for pulling that - instead it ruined Vanunu's life. Israel's government never faces any consequences, from the US, from the West, or from the international community in general. It will continue to do what it wants, and the people with the power to do anything about it will just continue to stand by, wringing their hands and paying lip-service to human rights. Quote
Paid Members BigJag Posted November 19, 2023 Paid Members Posted November 19, 2023 Why do Israel have this autonomy? Quote
Chili Posted November 19, 2023 Posted November 19, 2023 3 hours ago, BigJag said: Why do Israel have this autonomy? Yeah can anyone expand on this because I'm a bit lost on it. I feel it's an extremely treading carefully factors? Quote
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