d-d-d-dAz Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) I’m not taking a view on this either way, but it’s highly likely that the people taking a principled stance and leaving the Labour Party over this are precisely the people Keir Starmer and his team have wanted out of the Labour Party since he took office. I appreciate people who feel the need to stand on principle and resign, but the reason people like John McDonnell, Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott hung around through the New Labour years (despite them probably being unable to draw much of a line between the policies of their party and the Tories) is that you can always do more good inside the tent than out. Labour *will* remain the prominent ‘left wing’ party in this country, and Keir Starmer will likely be Prime Minister. Resigning doesn’t change that, but you might make it easier over time - if enough of you leave - to make the Party a permanent New Labour 2.0. Edited October 23, 2023 by d-d-d-dAz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Steve Coogan is not a fan of Kier Starmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted October 26, 2023 Share Posted October 26, 2023 If he could, Starmer would’ve got shot of her long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 You're a fucking lawyer! You know the law! "Politicians shouldn't make those comments"??? I absolutely despise this prick. Also, and I know this is unkind, but I cannot stand his voice. Its like he constantly has a cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted October 31, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2023 I think I need to see the longer clip of that because I'm suspicious it's been taken out of context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Devon Malcolm said: I think I need to see the longer clip of that because I'm suspicious it's been taken out of context. He was essentially saying that we need to have all the evidence before saying what is and isn’t a war crime. It was a reasonable position to hold. It’s just he didn’t hold it regarding Russia and Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: He was essentially saying that we need to have all the evidence before saying what is and isn’t a war crime. It was a reasonable position to hold. It’s just he didn’t hold it regarding Russia and Ukraine. Yeah, it’s a reasonable position, particularly with a British ally on whom we are trying to build diplomatic pressure to allow aid into Gaza and generally be less shitty. If Starmer were to say “yeah, I think Israel are committing war crimes” I’m not sure who they really helps apart from his enemies in the right-wing press. Again, not putting your dick in a dick trap is smart. As regards Russia I think the realpolitik is that there’s no longer any benefit in treating them with kid gloves as we’re in a de facto state of war with them - something we are definitely not with Israel. It’s a 100% political answer to a question fraught with consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 8 minutes ago, Loki said: If Starmer were to say “yeah, I think Israel are committing war crimes” I’m not sure who they really helps apart from his enemies in the right-wing press Does he really have any? I don’t see much from the right wing press but the thought they were quite benign with him? 9 minutes ago, Loki said: As regards Russia I think the realpolitik is that there’s no longer any benefit in treating them with kid gloves as we’re in a de facto state of war with them - something we are definitely not with Israel. That’s true, but it’s an inconsistenty. You can’t rightly say we need all evidence before calling something a war crime and then call something a war crime because you don’t like who did it. It adds to the “He’s a follower and not a leader” critique of him but I guess in the grand scheme of things, that’s not important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Does he really have any? He's the Leader of the Labour Party and the man likely to oust the Tories from power - of course they are out to get him. At the moment the main tactic is to constantly refer to the "crisis" in Labour and emphasise his struggles with the fringes of his party. The whole speech is interesting an nuanced, not that I agree with all of it but he makes his position clear. His longer-term policy is that a Labour government will be much more pro-active on the Middle East, and reiterate the party's support of a two-state solution. Here's his position on a ceasefire right now - be warned the clip is more than 20 seconds long and doesn't cut him off in the middle of a point. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67269089 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, Loki said: He's the Leader of the Labour Party and the man likely to oust the Tories from power - of course they are out to get him. He’s had the easiest ride of any labour leader since Blair. I really don’t think they’re out to get him because he doesn’t provide any opposition to the status quo. Who would you say is the main outlet who are targeting him? (Quoting went off so this is in reply to the below) It’s almost as if he approached it with his lawyers head on and gave in my opinion a very pragmatic response. My issue is how it went against previous statements he made, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him change again. But in regards to this statement and only this statement, I honestly thought for possibly the first time he appeared statesmanlike and more in command of language than the prime minister. 6 minutes ago, Loki said: The whole speech is interesting a nuanced, not that I agree with all of it but he makes his position clear. His longer-term policy is that a Labour government will be much more pro-active on the Middle East, and reiterate the party's support of a two-state solutionI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 31, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2023 46 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: It’s almost as if he approached it with his lawyers head on and gave in my opinion a very pragmatic response. My issue is how it went against previous statements he made, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see him change again. It's also that these things don't exist in a vacuum - it might be a different conversation if it were the only thing he were prevaricating about or going back on previous statements, but that's the story of his leadership. It's a strategy that may well pay dividends, in terms of looking somewhat competent while the Tory Party collapses in on itself, but I think for every time he's signalling "statesmanlike" to the Westminster sect, he's signalling "typical politician" to the rest of us. Ultimately, it's all part of the entire Starmer brand of "Don't Be Jeremy Corbyn". It's more important for the current project that he distance himself from explicitly pro-Palestine voices in the Labour Party than that he speak with any moral conscience. In this instance, I'm not sure it's a sustainable position, or one that history will be particularly kind to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted October 31, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted October 31, 2023 4 hours ago, SuperBacon said: You're a fucking lawyer! You know the law! A human rights lawyer, no less. A human rights lawyer stating that there shouldn't be a ceasefire. He's a cunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Just on the idea Starmer has had an easier ride than any other leader since Blair… I mean, the right wing press have accused him of enabling and prolonging Jimmy Savile’s abuse. You can’t throw many heavier punches at someone in this country. Regardless of what you think of him, he’s had his share of shite slung at him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: the right wing press have accused him of enabling and prolonging Jimmy Savile’s abuse Which ones did that? I mean it’s easily refutable and potentially libellous. I’ve seen them say he was head of the CPS at the time, which he was, but it’s been clarified with how he had no involvement with the case and even changed the procedures so something like that couldn’t happen again, but saying he enabled and prolonged it? I’ve not seen that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted November 1, 2023 Paid Members Share Posted November 1, 2023 Not seen it in the press but it's a favourite of the right-wing social media. There's fuck all else to go at, in fairness. Same as Miliband and the bacon sandwich. The fella's played a blinder so far. He might be a cunt but he's not a daft one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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