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ReturnOfTheMack

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This ship has long sailed, but it just goes to show how entrenched the culture is of not honing one's craft in independent wrestling, demonstrated by the lack of thought going into putting a match together, and missing the absolute fundamentals of telling a story. Jumping off a balcony on to an opponent below was meant to be a moment that happens in the culmination of a feud, i.e. that the guy doing it hates the other guy so much that he's will to risk his own wellbeing to deliver even more pain to his opponent. Doing that for a promotion'sĀ first show back, where there's been practically no build, no promotion, no audience anticipation, etc., is just the height of self-markdom and self-gratification.

The balcony dive is now just as meaningless as the "indy cruiserweight standoff" spot.

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2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Jumping off a balcony on to an opponent below was meant to be a moment that happens in the culmination of a feud,

Such as?Ā 

As far as I can remember it's always been nothing more than a cheap way to get a big reaction.Ā 

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2 minutes ago, Tommy! said:

Such as?Ā 

As far as I can remember it's always been nothing more than a cheap way to get a big reaction.Ā 

Sorry, should've put "high places", rather than specifically "balconies" - main things I was thinking of was Snuka's splash off the top of the cage, Foley's dives off them as well.Ā 

ECW's probably the main culprit behind the erosion of storytelling, so New Jack being shite comes as no surprise.

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Foley's Hell in a Cell bump was because he knew he'd be shit in a cage match and wanted to be able to try and top Michael's bump the year before. He wasn't even in a proper feud with Undertaker at the time, so I don't think that fits either.Ā 

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I was going to say the same @gmoney. In fairness the summer slam 97 bit was a sensible close to the interviews where he'd talked about watching Snuka and him becoming dude love. Unlike his flop from the top at breakdown however is also somewhat lacking in "meaning".

Ā 

On New Jack (who'll always be a cunt for allegedly selling nudes of Terri without her consent if nothing else) did he essentially get pushed of onto Bigelow by security at living dangerously 98 because he was too fucked or am I remembering that wrong?Ā 

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3 minutes ago, Tommy! said:

On New Jack (who'll always be a cunt for allegedly selling nudes of Terri without her consent if nothing else) did he essentially get pushed of onto Bigelow by security at living dangerously 98 because he was too fucked or am I remembering that wrong?Ā 

You're not wrong, I watched that a couple of years ago, it's horrifying and awful.Ā 

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Either way, my point is that a spot that big in a match that isn't the culmination of a feud, at the first return show for a promotion that hasn't run for years, before any of the roster have been established with an audience of which the majority is likely to be new, and no storyline or feud has run where it would make sense to do something that big, is just a fucking stupid thing to do from a craft perspective (already taking into account that it's stupid from a business perspective), and is the mark of a marky mark.

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46 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, my point is that a spot that big in a match that isn't the culmination of a feud, at the first return show for a promotion that hasn't run for years, before any of the roster have been established with an audience of which the majority is likely to be new, and no storyline or feud has run where it would make sense to do something that big, is just a fucking stupid thing to do from a craft perspective (already taking into account that it's stupid from a business perspective), and is the mark of a marky mark.

An alternative viewpoint (not mine I add) could be the idea that throwing in an insane spot like this makes the show more enjoyable as people typically like mad stuff so will be more likely to attend a future show or buy it on DVD or whatever.

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1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, my point is that a spot that big in a match that isn't the culmination of a feud, at the first return show for a promotion that hasn't run for years, before any of the roster have been established with an audience of which the majority is likely to be new, and no storyline or feud has run where it would make sense to do something that big, is just a fucking stupid thing to do from a craft perspective (already taking into account that it's stupid from a business perspective), and is the mark of a marky mark.

It should, but it hasn't for years. Big spots at indy events is a staple. Will Ospreay got a career in Japan by doing 450's of ladders in front of 100 people. Just like when a DDT was a match ender and not a transitional move, the big stunts are just done for the sake of a pop and to make a highlight reel then having any logic to them.

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32 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

An alternative viewpoint (not mine I add) could be the idea that throwing in an insane spot like this makes the show more enjoyable as people typically like mad stuff so will be more likely to attend a future show or buy it on DVD or whatever.

Yeh, that did come to mind, but it's a hell of a gamble to take. I guess we'll see if and when their numbers go up.

Not to mention that it leaves them with the question: what do they do for actual feud-ending climaxes when they've burnt through spots like that at the start?

9 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

It should, but it hasn't for years. Big spots at indy events is a staple. Will Ospreay got a career in Japan by doing 450's of ladders in front of 100 people. Just like when a DDT was a match ender and not a transitional move, the big stunts are just done for the sake of a pop and to make a highlight reel then having any logic to them.

Which is why I made sure to say this:

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

This ship has long sailed, but it just goes to show how entrenched the culture is of not honing one's craft in independent wrestling, demonstrated by the lack of thought going into putting a match together, and missing the absolute fundamentals of telling a story.

Basically, my original post was just a Classic Forum Rant(TM) carping at the abilities (or lack thereof) of the latest generation of Johnny Kickpadz.

Citing Will Ospreay kind of confirms my point. It's long been a bugbear of mine that he's been able to have the career he's had in NJPW, but now the fucker's been validated with an IGPW title. Don't know what the fuck their bookers are thinking.

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As much as I'd like everyone to appreciate the finer art of wrestling you really need a few "moments" at a show. Those moments don't need to be balcony dives but that's certainly the sort of thing the casual chat about, show clips of on their phones, encourage friends to go next time etc.

If you keep the casualsĀ  coming back and draw them into your storylines then the moments can be story driven or character driven and don't need to be so visually crazy.Ā  Or you can have those big crazy moments be the end of the feud (and so long as you don't do specifically the same crazy spot every show people don't get nearly as desensitised as wrestling fans might - remember this is one live show every few months or whatnot)

If you watch a lot of wrestling then yeah these tropes get overused, if it's a weekly TV show then yeah those tropes can be quickly overused (see AEW and tables). If you're going to a wrestling show to have a few drinks with your friends... it takes a lot longer for things to feel overused

Edited by organizedkaos
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12 minutes ago, organizedkaos said:

As much as I'd like everyone to appreciate the finer art of wrestling you really need a few "moments" at a show. Those moments don't need to be balcony dives but that's certainly the sort of thing the casual chat about, show clips of on their phones, encourage friends to go next time etc.

If you keep the casualsĀ  coming back and draw them into your storylines then the moments can be story driven or character driven and don't need to be so visually crazy.Ā  Or you can have those big crazy moments be the end of the feud (and so long as you don't do specifically the same crazy spot every show people don't get nearly as desensitised as wrestling fans might - remember this is one live show every few months or whatnot)

If you watch a lot of wrestling then yeah these tropes get overused, if it's a weekly TV show then yeah those tropes can be quickly overused (see AEW and tables). If you're going to a wrestling show to have a few drinks with your friends... it takes a lot longer for things to feel overused

I absolutely agree there should be moments, but the balcony dive is both overused and stupid to do on a first-time show. But I suppose this is something I view from a distance, having not really been bothered with wrestling shows on a regular basis for some time.

Damn stupid clouds, hanging there.

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