Ukraine / Russian War

[LaGoosh]

28 minutes ago, David said:

Hit state-owned entities in the pocket with financial sanctions. Hit the oligarchs who have benefited from Putin's rule and who cosy up to him with sanctions, hit the Russian government officials who have swanky apartments in London with financial sanctions.

As Keith said, Putin gives not a single fuck about Oleg the hard-working father of three who's savings have been decimated and who has been cut off from the global financial system. 

What he cares about are the state-owned cash cow entities and his rich friends who help keep him in power. 

Hit those types, not the average Russian citizen.

They are already doing exactly that. You haven't come up with some brilliant original solution. But I don't think you understand how banking works. There's not separate oligarch banks and working class Russian banks. The oligarchs and government officials have most their money and assets tied up in the exact same financial institutions as everyone else in Russia. Unfortunately you can't hit one without the other. The whole point is to tank the rouble so all the people at the top lose their money and business and government finances take a huge hit. The horrific sad but inevitable side effect is it fucks over everyone else too.

[Keith Houchen]

31 minutes ago, Cousin Jim Bob said:

 

I think your underestimating them and missing what they are trying to do, they are desperately trying to get their money out before it disappears. They are maybe not naming Putin yet but they are using War! And blaming that for why their cards are suddenly not working.

And that war is the fault of the enemies of Russia. They want their money out before NATO’s sanctions collapse the currency.  Their actions have caused this, not Putin. 

 

5 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

But I don't think you understand how banking works. There's not separate oligarch banks and working class Russian banks.

There absolutely is. Oligarchs have their assists and money invested outside of Russia. London in particular houses enormous amounts of money stolen from the Russian people. The bank I worked for has separate divisions for the Uber wealthy and the working schlubs.  

[LaGoosh]

12 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

There absolutely is. Oligarchs have their assists and money invested outside of Russia. London in particular houses enormous amounts of money stolen from the Russian people. The bank I worked for has separate divisions for the Uber wealthy and the working schlubs.  

Yes you're correct. What I meant was that there's not exclusive separate banks for the wealthy and us poors where everything is separate. The mega wealthy have their money and assets spread all over the place. As for Russian money hidden in London, the government are currently going after just that at the moment but it's difficult to do legally so in a lot of cases are fighting UK lawyers who represent the Russians. 

Not that I think HMG even have the skill, ability or desire to only target oligarchs if that was possible or they wanted to. Pretty clear they just want to fuck Russia economically as a whole.

Edited March 1, 2022 by LaGoosh

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, LaGoosh said:

As for Russian money hidden in London, the government are currently going after just that at the moment but it's difficult to do legally so in a lot of cases are fighting UK lawyers who represent the Russians. 

If the government want to know where the money is all they have to do is look at the donations receipts. But they won’t do that, they’ll harm everyone else. 
 

But there are private, exclusive banks, and investment schemes where opening an account will cost millions. It isn’t all high street banks. 

[LaGoosh]

2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

But there are private, exclusive banks, and investment schemes where opening an account will cost millions. It isn’t all high street banks. 

Absolutely. Wonder how possible it is to determine who banks where. You've got to reckon these cunts have been hiding all their cash very effectively for years in preparation for this exact scenario. 

[Chest Rockwell]

15 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

But there are private, exclusive banks, and investment schemes where opening an account will cost millions. It isn’t all high street banks. 

Yes but those banks use the same banking systems as each other for the most part. It's a very complex operation to mobilise being as specific and targeted as you're suggesting.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Chest Rockwell

[Keith Houchen]

2 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Yes but those banks use the same banking systems as each other for the most part. It's a very complex operation to mobilise being as specific and targeted as you're suggesting.

Indeed, but they know which banks and organisations are the ones used by the billionaires and don’t have working class Russians as customers. The unexplained wealth bill is there in this country for exactly this scenario. 

[stumobir]

I had no idea Putin and his Oligarchs were so noble that they would happily be absorbing all of these sanctions themselves and not passing any of their losses on to the general population. Can we have them as our leaders?

[Vamp]

⁸It's blackly comic how the west keeps talking about how embarrassing this must be for Putin even if he mamages to take Ukraine but not how embarrassing it should be for the west to have sat and watched Putin kill civilians on his way to taking Ukraine while passing sanctions that so far haven't saved any lives or brought peace any closer to Ukraine.

Essentially the western response to the murder of innocent civilians is to try and manipulate another set of civilians into rebelling against a crazed dick-tator.

I'm not saying I have a better solution. I don't. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

Tory Compassion 

 

[d-d-d-dAz]

12 hours ago, stumobir said:

I had no idea Putin and his Oligarchs were so noble that they would happily be absorbing all of these sanctions themselves and not passing any of their losses on to the general population. Can we have them as our leaders?

This is the thing that I don’t understand about people criticising sanctions impacting normal people, right.

Dictators are by and large toppled by popular uprisings. Even if the gun is ultimately used by a member of the establishment inner circle, it’s been influenced by immense pressure from the common man making it seem like they need to act before theyre the ones getting shot.

You have to hit the people to undermine the stability of Putin’s grasp on power and potentially trigger a movement against him. It’s not economic pain for economic pain’s sake, it comes with the strategic aim of bringing his regime to an end or, worst case scenario, making him change tact before it comes to that.

If you don’t hit the people, and only hit the rich and the people around Putin it won’t work. Those people owe Putin everything, they’re beholden to him and he controls them. He could have them executed, within seconds, if he wanted by the militia’s or mercenaries he controls who would be outside of that particular sanction regime.

It’s cruel, but it is what it is. The other option is all out war and the risk of a nuclear winter that leaves us all as ash dancing in the wind.

Edited March 2, 2022 by d-d-d-dAz

[Keith Houchen]

8 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Dictators are by and large toppled by popular uprisings.

Dictators are usually toppled by foreign forces, usually American ones. Then they install their guy. 
 

Look at our government sanctioning VTB, a great move that would hit the wealth thieves. Except they’ve given them 30 days notice to move their assets. The reason I’m against sanctions is down to working class solidarity. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

14 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Dictators are usually toppled by foreign forces, usually American ones. Then they install their guy. 
 

Look at our government sanctioning VTB, a great move that would hit the wealth thieves. Except they’ve given them 30 days notice to move their assets. The reason I’m against sanctions is down to working class solidarity. 

Marxism doesn’t take into account international relations in any great way, or at least not practically relevant to a system predicated on individual nation states.

I get it. I understand and I personally have sympathy.

But the foreign forces capturing the brutal dictator option is rarely against the opinion of the people, either. It’s also not an option here.

If you want Putin gone, the foreign forces on the ground option assumes a world war where the logical endpoint (not the hyperbolic endpoint) is some form of nuclear war between the east and west. The working class will be fair more impacted by that than the short term effect of economic sanctions.

The safest route forward for the working class people of Russia and the rest of Europe (and the world) is to exert short to medium term pressure on the Russian economy in the hope of influencing regime change or policy reversal. The alternative is lots of dead working class people all over the world, as Putin has been working on precedent for a decade. If we don’t act now, it’ll be another country next.

Edited March 2, 2022 by d-d-d-dAz

[stumobir]

Just finished working with a Ukrainian Captain who I’ve got to know fairly well over the last few years. He’s signing off his vessel tomorrow to fly to Bucharest then drive to Odessa to collect his family and take them to the Romanian border, knowing he won’t be able to cross it with them. My heart was breaking for him, it looked like he hadn’t slept for days. 😢

[Carbomb]

A very interesting read from Carole Cadwalladr, characterising what Putin has been doing as "the first Great Information War".