Ukraine / Russian War

[69MeDon]

I'm interested in finding out what has made all these people so *certain* that there is no coercion with the POW video.

[Jonny Vegas]

For avoidance of any doubt and to avoid any misinterpretation I'm in total sympathy with everyone in Ukraine effected by this and the scenes are horrific.

I do however find it quite difficult to not acknowledge the utter hypocrisy the western world, the media and even sporting organisations have been treating the situation with when there are several places across the world where this has been happening and currently still is with nowhere near the reaction.

For just one example, my understanding is that Israel has been doing this, similar or possibly worse to Palestine and Palestinian people for 70 years or more.

I can't help but shake the feeling that the difference in the worlds reaction is because this time its happening to white people and that isn't helped by me having seen the clip from Trevor Noah where he highlights several reporters from mainstream media saying mental things like "this isn't an Afghanistan or Iraq" and "these are decent middle class normal people".

There's been numerous times football organisations have penalised clubs and players for showing support with various causes and have been told "theres no politics in football" and whilst I'm fully in support of the Ukrainian cause this does go once again to show there absolutely is room for politics in football...but only if the organisations and governing bodies involved arent concerned it might lose them any money.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Jonny Vegas

[Keith Houchen]

4 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I do however find it quite difficult to not acknowledge the utter hypocrisy the western world, the media and even sporting organisations have been treating the situation with when there are several places across the world where this has been happening and currently still is with nowhere near the reaction.

Yep. I think it’s great that their plight is highlighted and getting all the support they need. I wish the same humanity was shown to Palestinian, Yemeni, Somali, and everyone else who was bombed over the weekend. I can sort of understand as Ukraine is in the same continent as us but you’re right. It’s about the whiteness. Even the language is different. There aren’t migrants, they’re refugees. 
 

It should be noted that despite all its talk about leading the humanitarian aid, the UK has accepted 50 refugees. There are more Oligarchs in the UK than Ukrainian refugees. But there is some good news. 

 

[Jonny Vegas]

I was discussing this with a friend over the weekend how regardless of the overwhelming outpouring of support at the moment whoch we both attributed mainly to the whiteness of it all was that it's still only a matter of time before the same usual suspect media outlets currenrly showing support and some of the people on social media using whichever the latest trending profile picture frame to show their support make the transition from "these poor people lets help however we can" to "these people have helped themselves to all our jobs and benefits".

[Guest]

There's absolutely a point to be made about double standards and the reasons behind them, but I feel like now's not the time. It's not quite #AllLivesMatter to say there are other crises worthy of the same attention, but it could have the same chilling effect on people's response to this particular crisis. Most people aren't going to triple their efforts at this very moment to ensure other victims are getting just as much support. You can hope to convince them later on to maintain their current level of engagement, rerouted to places that still need it, but I'd hate to see anyone's present enthusiasm for supporting Ukraine deflated by soapbox intellectuals calling them hypocrites, even if it's true.

[69MeDon]

48 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

feel like now's not the time.

The trouble is, it's never the time.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, 69MeDon said:

The trouble is, it's never the time.

There'll never be a time these arguments can be made without risking a reduction in urgently needed support for Ukraine?

[69MeDon]

9 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

There'll never be a time these arguments can be made without risking a reduction in urgently needed support for Ukraine?

There's always some reason that "now is not the time". 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, 69MeDon said:

There's always some reason that "now is not the time".

I'm asking you to expand on your point here, because I've tried to be clear about why there's a greater threat of harm when doing this at the height of the crisis in Ukraine to doing it at literally any other time.

If you're trying to make the point that there's never a time people are willing to listen and help other victims, then you may be right but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the active harm that can be done.

[Keith Houchen]

If all efforts and donations are heading to Ukrainian refugees, it could be argued that’s doing harm to all other refugees. As you say, charitable compassion is finite. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

If all efforts and donations are heading to Ukrainian refugees, it could be argued that’s doing harm to all other refugees. As you say, charitable compassion is finite.

If you think that chastising people in this moment is going to make them reconsider in a more inclusive way, rather than throw their hands up and revert to their previously uncharitable position when they weren't being called hypocrites, then you're more optimistic than I am but I hope you're right, since I obviously can't move you to review your own approach.

[Keith Houchen]

10 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Yep. I think it’s great that their plight is highlighted and getting all the support they need

That’s my own approach. 

[Guest]

Aye.

[69MeDon]

26 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

I'm asking you to expand on your point here, because I've tried to be clear about why there's a greater threat of harm when doing this at the height of the crisis in Ukraine to doing it at literally any other time.

If you're trying to make the point that there's never a time people are willing to listen and help other victims, then you may be right but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the active harm that can be done.

I don't agree that highlighting that, hey, by the way, Ukraine isn't the only place getting bombed at the moment risks somehow diluting people's enthusiasm in supporting Ukraine. It's almost wall-to-wall flag waving right now, with a huge part of the world giving 100% uncritical support Ukraine in all circumstances. That won't last, because this is going to go on a lot longer than people have the bandwidth to spend all day talking and thinking about (same thing happened with Covid). So, in my opinion, now is actually a great time to highlight this stuff because now is when people are engaged with the topic in general. When the next crisis hits, and it will because we live in a world just lurching from crisis to crisis these days, people will tune out the chatter on "war".

[Keith Houchen]

7 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

Aye.

Good, so we’re agreed. 

Another Brexit bonus! I can’t remember which charity it was but they said they’d rather money was sent direct than vans filled with clothes people were going to take to the tip. It’s heartwarming though to see someone prepared to fill up a van and drive it over 1000 miles this help but I do think leaving it to professionals or working with them is the best approach.