The 2022 strip out Triple H's vision thread

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, LaGoosh said:

Thinking more about this, I might agree with Vince a bit here. As great as some of these people are, it's weird that a developmental with millions behind it and some of the best minds in the business involved hasn't actually produced that many top stars for the past 5 years. I imagine the reasons are more structural than due to specific people but I can see why they would want to wipe the slate.

I guess the crux of the argument here is how much of the blame lies on NXT's failure to produce people who have been prepared well enough to be made into top stars, and how much on Vince's inability to make them into stars. 

Going from the discussion on here over the years, the consensus appears to be that NXT did produce people who could've been big names, but WWE fucked them up with parity booking and failure to properly pull the trigger, possibly deliberately in order to prevent anyone becoming big enough to threaten their "The Brand Is The Draw" policy. I wouldn't be surprised if that were true, but Devon's mention that the wrestling style coming out of NXT is indy as fuck is interesting; that certainly would be a major failing on NXT's part.

[DavidB6937]

All the preparation in the world, whether on the indies or NXT or wherever else, doesn't mean you avoid the shit writers and the higher ups fucking around with your character or whatever else.

You can only work with what you're given and if opportunities aren't there or they're cutting you off before you even start then is that really the fault of where you came from? Or even your fault?

I'm not saying NXT didn't have its bad points but being "main roster ready" is what exactly? I guess none of us really know the ins and outs of why so many failed but I do struggle to believe that NXT did so bad by so much talent that they all failed on Raw or Smackdown or got released.

I don't even think that many of them really needed an overhaul if moving onto Raw or Smackdown. A few tweaks here and there fine. But there rarely felt like there was an intention of ever getting behind the talent and making new successes.

[LaGoosh]

16 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I guess the crux of the argument here is how much of the blame lies on NXT's failure to produce people who have been prepared well enough to be made into top stars, and how much on Vince's inability to make them into stars. 

Going from the discussion on here over the years, the consensus appears to be that NXT did produce people who could've been big names, but WWE fucked them up with parity booking and failure to properly pull the trigger, possibly deliberately in order to prevent anyone becoming big enough to threaten their "The Brand Is The Draw" policy. I wouldn't be surprised if that were true, but Devon's mention that the wrestling style coming out of NXT is indy as fuck is interesting; that certainly would be a major failing on NXT's part.

Regardless of WWE's current inability to make stars you have to consider that the fans judge of success is no doubt much different than Vince McMahon's and Bruce Pritchard's. My guess is that Vince wants the next John Cena. That's really all he's looking for. A strong upper card of over talents has never really been his interest or booking philosophy. He wants a top babyface to build the entire company around, the rest is all basically filler. OVW had Cena, Orton, Batista and Brock Lesnar. FCW had Roman Reigns. NXT hasn't had anyone who could realistically meet Vince's criteria for a top guy, regardless of how shit we all think the booking is. Some of you might say Keith Lee fit that bill but to Vince he's too old, too fat and not handsome enough. Drew McIntyre perhaps comes closest but he isn't All American and isn't charismatic enough to draw people in. I think you basically just have to look at NXT 2.0 as the hunt for John Cena 2.0. That's all Vince wants.

[Carbomb]

4 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Regardless of WWE's current inability to make stars you have to consider that the fans judge of success is no doubt much different than Vince McMahon's and Bruce Pritchard's. My guess is that Vince wants the next John Cena. That's really all he's looking for. A strong upper card of over talents has never really been his interest or booking philosophy. He wants a top babyface to build the entire company around, the rest is all basically filler. OVW had Cena, Orton, Batista and Brock Lesnar. FCW had Roman Reigns. NXT hasn't had anyone who could realistically meet Vince's criteria for a top guy, regardless of how shit we all think the booking is. Some of you might say Keith Lee fit that bill but to Vince he's too old, too fat and not handsome enough. Drew McIntyre perhaps comes closest but he isn't All American and isn't charismatic enough to draw people in. I think you basically just have to look at NXT 2.0 as the hunt for John Cena 2.0. That's all Vince wants.

Is that still what he wants, though? He might have done back in the day, with guys like Hogan, The Rock, Austin, Cena, and so on to build up brand recognition and draw money, but they got him past that level a long time ago. We're now in an era where, even with AEW's presence, WWE is pretty much the only game in town (globally speaking), their brand actually is the selling point, and people pay hand over fist for the experience and any old shite that he's peddling with it - it's basically a mobile theme park, and he's earning a ton with it. 

It just doesn't seem likely to me that he'd want another star who could get huge and then leave him for Hollywood again, when he's basically got a licence to print money now.

[Infinity Land]

22 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Is that still what he wants, though? He might have done back in the day, with guys like Hogan, The Rock, Austin, Cena, and so on to build up brand recognition and draw money, but they got him past that level a long time ago.

Lesnar, Goldberg, John Cena's most recent stints. The constant rumours of the Rock coming back for a big match. The WWE isn't just a wrestling company, it's sports entertainment. To do that you need stars that transcend the wrestling bubble.

[Supremo]

55 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Regardless of WWE's current inability to make stars you have to consider that the fans judge of success is no doubt much different than Vince McMahon's and Bruce Pritchard's. My guess is that Vince wants the next John Cena. That's really all he's looking for. A strong upper card of over talents has never really been his interest or booking philosophy. He wants a top babyface to build the entire company around, the rest is all basically filler. OVW had Cena, Orton, Batista and Brock Lesnar. FCW had Roman Reigns. NXT hasn't had anyone who could realistically meet Vince's criteria for a top guy, regardless of how shit we all think the booking is. Some of you might say Keith Lee fit that bill but to Vince he's too old, too fat and not handsome enough. Drew McIntyre perhaps comes closest but he isn't All American and isn't charismatic enough to draw people in. I think you basically just have to look at NXT 2.0 as the hunt for John Cena 2.0. That's all Vince wants.

This is absolutely spot on.

That’s what everyone seems to forget when lamenting the loss of NXT Skulls and Chains. Regardless of how good the shows were, it was a multi-million dollar developmental system designed to provide Vince with more John Cenas but all he ever got was a bunch of Johnny Kickpads. And then worse still, when Vince accepted what a flawed system it was and instead decided to capitalise on the critical success of the brand, they failed there too! Double shit.

[DavidB6937]

5 minutes ago, Supremo said:

Regardless of how good the shows were, it was a multi-million dollar developmental system designed to provide Vince with more John Cenas 

Was it though? As much as we all know Vince has found success with guys like that before, NXT's reboot after the competition and weirdness era started with Seth Rollins as champion. Hardly a guy in line with what you'd expect Vince to be "looking for". But they've continued to support Seth to this day.

You would think Big E would be more along those lines but consider his NXT title reign was nearly 10 years ago and its taken them this long to get behind him as a singles star on the main roster and you have to wonder just how aware Vince even was of NXT and its talent at points through its history.

But the fact is NXT existed for a LONG time as a development and third brand place without focusing on what you'd expect Vince to be interested in. Would it really have survived for that long if it wasn't what he wanted?

[d-d-d-dAz]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

Is that still what he wants, though? He might have done back in the day, with guys like Hogan, The Rock, Austin, Cena, and so on to build up brand recognition and draw money, but they got him past that level a long time ago. We're now in an era where, even with AEW's presence, WWE is pretty much the only game in town (globally speaking), their brand actually is the selling point, and people pay hand over fist for the experience and any old shite that he's peddling with it - it's basically a mobile theme park, and he's earning a ton with it. 

It just doesn't seem likely to me that he'd want another star who could get huge and then leave him for Hollywood again, when he's basically got a licence to print money now.

Yeah, but brands still need secondary assets. And that’s what the top talent are now (or certainly where I think the endpoint will be for WWE) - they are consumer facing brand proxies.

To your point, the brand is the selling point. The competition is gone. You don’t rely on the stars to sell anything anymore, so you just need to constantly reinforce and strengthen the brand and maintain your #1 position.

You want several assets you can distribute (on the sides of buses, on billboards, on adverts, to do PR) that when people see they think ‘WWE’.
 

It’s a brand strengthening exercise. Brands want as many strong assets as they can so that when people see them they recall the company, even if there’s not a primary brand asset present (company logo, for example). The stronger the mental availability of your brand, the easier it is to maintain market position (and increasingly companies audit their brands and attach a value to it that adds 00’s to their market value).

Basically, what I’m saying is, Vince wants his Tony the Tiger or Vladimir the Meerkat or Go Compare nobhead.

[Keith Houchen]

8 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Vladimir the Meerkat

Is that what he’s called in the Impact Zone?

[Carbomb]

52 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

Lesnar, Goldberg, John Cena's most recent stints. The constant rumours of the Rock coming back for a big match. The WWE isn't just a wrestling company, it's sports entertainment. To do that you need stars that transcend the wrestling bubble.

 

26 minutes ago, Supremo said:

This is absolutely spot on.

That’s what everyone seems to forget when lamenting the loss of NXT Skulls and Chains. Regardless of how good the shows were, it was a multi-million dollar developmental system designed to provide Vince with more John Cenas but all he ever got was a bunch of Johnny Kickpads. And then worse still, when Vince accepted what a flawed system it was and instead decided to capitalise on the critical success of the brand, they failed there too! Double shit.

 

6 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Yeah, but brands still need secondary assets. And that’s what the top talent are now (or certainly where I think the endpoint will be for WWE) - they are consumer facing brand proxies.

To your point, the brand is the selling point. The competition is gone. You don’t rely on the stars to sell anything anymore, so you just need to constantly reinforce and strengthen the brand and maintain your #1 position.

You want several assets you can distribute (on the sides of buses, on billboards, on adverts, to do PR) that when people see they think ‘WWE’.
 

It’s a brand strengthening exercise. Brands want as many strong assets as they can so that when people see them they recall the company, even if there’s not a primary brand asset present (company logo, for example). The stronger the mental availability of your brand, the easier it is to maintain market position (and increasingly companies audit their brands and attach a value to it that adds 00’s to their market value).

Basically, what I’m saying is, Vince wants his Tony the Tiger or Vladimir the Meerkat or Go Compare nobhead.

All valid points, but I'm looking at how they fucked up Roman Reigns as a primary indicator of either their inability or unwillingness to build another big star. He came up through NXT, and pretty much fit the mould of what they wanted, didn't he? Big, good-looking guy with charisma who could talk (a bit), looked legit, could work a match, and got over pretty quickly with The Shield. 

Aside from slightly better mike skills, I don't see what more they could've wanted from him.

[d-d-d-dAz]

11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

 

 

All valid points, but I'm looking at how they fucked up Roman Reigns as a primary indicator of either their inability or unwillingness to build another big star. He came up through NXT, and pretty much fit the mould of what they wanted, didn't he? Big, good-looking guy with charisma who could talk (a bit), looked legit, could work a match, and got over pretty quickly with The Shield. 

Aside from slightly better mike skills, I don't see what more they could've wanted from him.

I think the issue they had with Roman is they were still agonising about how they wanted the audiences in the venues to react. They made bad decisions and messed things up because they were constantly thinking they were smarter than their audience and they could get the big breakout babyface moment where everyone cheers.

I don’t know, but I suspect the days of giving a shit how the in-venue audience responds (beyond just responding at all) are gone.

I don’t think they’ll complicate the next big star build by worrying too much about whether it’s cheers or boos, as long as it’s ‘engagement’ and the anointed one plays well in the mainstream.

It’s two separate economies, the live wrestling industry and the WWE entertainment universe. And, I suspect they think the former is a market of perverts and weirdos that don’t necessarily impact their bottom line to any great degree any more.

[Vamp]

After a while I think they saw NXT as less of a developmental promotion and more a selling point for the network. That's no longer the case. They might as well make it more in line with what's worked for them in the past.

As for pushing NXT stars, there's probably only a handful who'd tick all the boxes. You can send Big E on talk shows and to baseball games but are you sending Owens, Ciampa, Cole or Gargano? No. Then there's all the make a wish stuff and personal appearances. Who knows how much of it they do and what their attitude is like?

Getting rid of Regal seems like a boneheaded move but then I can't imagine he fits in with what they want. And, in a way, I think he'd probably be better teaching out of the system because then he's free to teach the next generation of 'carpenters' rather than preparing superstars. But then personally I'd be far more interested in him getting into acting. He'd be cracking at that I'd imagine  

[Carbomb]

7 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I think the issue they had with Roman is they were still agonising about how they wanted the audiences in the venues to react. They made bad decisions and messed things up because they were constantly thinking they were smarter than their audience and they could get the big breakout babyface moment where everyone cheers.

I don’t know, but I suspect the days of giving a shit how the in-venue audience responds (beyond just responding at all) are gone.

I don’t think they’ll complicate the next big star build by worrying too much about whether it’s cheers or boos, as long as it’s ‘engagement’ and the anointed one plays well in the mainstream.

It’s two separate economies, the live wrestling industry and the WWE entertainment universe. And, I suspect they think the former is a market of perverts and weirdos that don’t necessarily impact their bottom line to any great degree any more.

Fair enough. I've not watched WWE for nearly a decade now, so I'll take people's words for it. But I do still read discussions on here, so it's interesting to see what appears to be a disconnect in opinion.

I will admit that my observations in this discussion were susceptible to one particular bias, which is my firm belief that Vince is a typical Republican cunt employer, i.e. one who will take any opportunity he sees to exploit his workers to squeeze every dollar he can out of them. When it was first discussed that he was looking to make the brand the selling point and not any one particular wrestler, it made perfect sense: he doesn't want any of his workers to ever have enough power and leverage again - he wants at best to stop them getting more money out of him than he's willing to pay, and at worst, he wants to be able to lowball them as much as he can, or be able to fire them without repercussion to his bottom line. He also effectively wants them in hock to him permanently for building their careers, and doesn't want them to be able to walk out on him to something better paid and with better conditions like film/TV, or simply when they've had enough of his shit.

Given what we've seen of his well-documented, general employment practices and his overall personality as a control freak, I think it's a bias well-founded. It then comes down to figuring out whether or not the exploitation returns him a better reward of money & power than the classic model does.

[Love-Wilcox]

3 hours ago, LaGoosh said:

I think you basically just have to look at NXT 2.0 as the hunt for John Cena 2.0. That's all Vince wants.

To be fair to NXT, it did give us Charlotte, Sasha, Becky, Bayley and more recently Bianca. Perhaps instead of being obsessed with finding the next John Cena, they could've put more focus on finding the first 'Joan Cena'.

[Tamura]

Considering the millions (and milllions) of dollars WWE has to play with, if they can't find a couple of hundred grand a year to pay Regal to do something they are complete idiots. Fair enough to a changing of the guard in NXT if it's not delivering the desired end product(s), but I think it's universally agreed that Regal, in whatever capacity you employ him in, has plenty to offer any wrestling promotion even if he can't wrestle any more.