The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[BomberPat]

13 hours ago, FUM said:

The Cena/Triple H Mania match was excellent imo and Triple H really put him over big time. In fact, I’d say that’s the one that truly established Cena as the man. Trips got criticism at the time of the promos but they wound up playing massively into the story of the match hence Cena tapping him out.

Agree to disagree on that one - I rewatched it about a year ago, and was absolutely staggered by how much of the build and the hype package is about how John Cena "isn't a good technical wrestler", while Triple H is. For one, Triple H was never a good technical wrestler, no matter how much they tried to convince us that him doing an Indian Deathlock every six months made him one. But this was coming off the back of Angle, Benoit and Eddie as top guys, of a fairly critical period of teaching us that to be a "technical wrestler" is something admirable and respected, something that takes work, and that it's someone we should be rooting for. And it's not just Triple H telling us that John Cena isn't that, it's the announce team and the neutral voice of the promotion in video packages as well!

I think it played a huge part in Cena getting the "you can't wrestle" and "Cena sucks" treatment for much longer than was ever warranted, and the difference between JBL and Triple H in their respective feuds with Cena is how you can lose to someone without necessarily putting them over. Cena had to work Triple H's match, and Triple H's match only benefits Triple H. The only people who ever really escaped that orbit were Foley, Rock, Daniel Bryan and, weirdly, Ronda Rousey. 

[Chili]

I don't know Jackie Redmond, but she has a name of a character you'd have in Coronation Street that would have an affair with Mike Baldwin or something so I like her even if I've not seen her at all.

[TildeGuy~!]

I think she was a fan that used to do NHL coverage as she’d pop up on my feed in the past every now and then talking about WWE

[Hannibal Scorch]

Penta loves Trump confirmed 

I thought his match with Pete Dunne (god his stock is so low now days) was better then Gable, didn’t love the Catherine Wheel compared to the fire.

As I understand some of the advert interviews are shown on Netflix most places, but America do get ads during Raw according to twitter. Some countries still have TV deals for Raw and will slowly migrate to Netflix as those deals expire (believe India is the next country to in March).

[RedTwoster]

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Karrion Kross has become one of the most entertaining characters in WWE. He’s genuinely brilliant in his current gimmick, I’m finding him very enjoyable.

I’m intrigued by who Dom has referred Chad Gable to, to help deal with his luchador problem. It can’t be as simple as it being someone like Santos Escobar or Andrade, can it? Well, it can, but I’m assuming it won’t be. 

 

[d-d-d-dAz]

2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

Agree to disagree on that one - I rewatched it about a year ago, and was absolutely staggered by how much of the build and the hype package is about how John Cena "isn't a good technical wrestler", while Triple H is. For one, Triple H was never a good technical wrestler, no matter how much they tried to convince us that him doing an Indian Deathlock every six months made him one. But this was coming off the back of Angle, Benoit and Eddie as top guys, of a fairly critical period of teaching us that to be a "technical wrestler" is something admirable and respected, something that takes work, and that it's someone we should be rooting for. And it's not just Triple H telling us that John Cena isn't that, it's the announce team and the neutral voice of the promotion in video packages as well!

I think it played a huge part in Cena getting the "you can't wrestle" and "Cena sucks" treatment for much longer than was ever warranted, and the difference between JBL and Triple H in their respective feuds with Cena is how you can lose to someone without necessarily putting them over. Cena had to work Triple H's match, and Triple H's match only benefits Triple H. The only people who ever really escaped that orbit were Foley, Rock, Daniel Bryan and, weirdly, Ronda Rousey. 

So I don't actually disagree with anything you've said. It wasn't a great match, I don't think it did a huge amount to help Cena in the grand scheme of things and I think it did embed the 'you can't wrestle' chant into the fans treatment of Cena from then on.

But, I think the theory was good (or at least made sense on paper) and in defter hands could have worked.

The younger, brawler champion - yet to prove himself against all the big names - has his insecurities laid bare by the arrogant champion. He's told by his opponent (who in this hypothetical scenario is considered the best wrestler in the world - which is undoubtedly how Triple H saw himself, at least) that his worst fears are real and it's laid out for everyone to see; he's not good enough, he can't wrestle and he's going to be humiliated in the biggest match of his career. Cut to the match, and then in a close contest the young pretender actually outwrestles the best wrestler in the world, makes him submit and proves his credentials to the world.

That is a good story. And, oddly enough, whilst Triple H was never going to be the sort of nuanced performer to land that story properly... Triple H the booker could probably do a good job with it.

[Hannibal Scorch]

9 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

 

I’m intrigued by who Dom has referred Chad Gable to, to help deal with his luchador problem. 

 

Konnan

[JLM]

Sami’s promo the highlight of the show for me this week. Loved him explicitly NOT doing the “this is the missing piece to complete my career” story. He’s a humble guy who is grateful for the career and support he’s had, but he’s earned the right to do something for himself, dream big and he believes he has what it takes. Excellent stuff. 
 

I love Gunther so much, fascinated to see if he can drag a decent singles match out of Jey Uso. 

I enjoyed Penta vs Pete Dunne. They seem to be going with this as the formula for now, where our man faces workhorse type opponents who put him through the wringer before he valiantly overcomes them. The crowd was hot for it, willing him to come back during Dunne’s fairly long heat, joining in on the Cero Miedos and popping big for the rally at the end. Penta vs Kaiser should be a cracking TV match too. 
 

My spicier take this week is that I enjoyed Nia vs Bayley! Bayley has always been Nia’s best singles opponent and I thought she was great here. Fighting with one arm and telling big woman/little woman story very well. Nia had rough moments as usual. She needs to ditch all strikes aside from the pop up headbutt. That move looked incredible but the back elbows in the corner were among the worst things I’ve seen in a wrestling ring.
 

However, a lot of her other big spots looked utterly devastating. The leg drop half catching Bayley looked awful buuuut Bayley then sold the arm like a champ for the rest of the match and made it work for me. I dunno I just thought it conveyed the dynamic of a wounded hero in palpable danger against a rampaging monster. Perhaps the danger being a little too real due to Nia’s clumsiness shouldn’t be factored into match quality, but for me it had decent drama and was backed by a hot crowd. Post match was by the numbers stuff but Rhea is so incredibly over and has such presence that it felt electric. 
 

edit: @RedTwoster Agreed on Kross! It’s been discussed but cannot be overstated what a turn around this has been. His little “yes yes very exciting” then going back to his psycho face at the end but with a little wink baked into it made me laugh out loud. He’s killing it. 
 

 

Edited January 21, 2025 by JLM

[tiger_rick]

13 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but Karrion Kross has become one of the most entertaining characters in WWE. He’s genuinely brilliant in his current gimmick, I’m finding him very enjoyable.

I'm fascinated by this stuff. If you go back to their first boom, guys had a shelf life and a position on the card. Unless they were Tito Santana, they stayed a few years and then disappeared before they fell too far. They didn't really recycle guys or repackage them. Throughout the next 20 years or so, if you came in and were useless, you quickly disappeared. There were a few exceptions were they would recognise that the gimmick, not the guy, was the problem. Kane is the most obvious one. He wasn't great but he never had a chance with the Dentist or Fake Diesel gimmicks. 

The "modern day", which covers about the last 15 years, is full of these guys who are recycled time and again or given chance after chance to get over. Even more surprising is that fans are so forgiving these days that they'll tune in week after week and go "This guy is shit", "This guy is shit", "This guy is shit", "Does this guy have something?", "Oh no, this guy is still shit", "Mmm, you know, what maybe he does have something?", "Bloody hell, This guy is alright you know", "This guy is great". 

I'm intrigued by the change in viewer habits as much as the change in their approach. The audience is so patient - more than they have any right to expect, and it's created an environment where lots of guys do go round and round again, or get chance after chance to get over. I'm not convinced it's a good thing though it certainly is for the people getting paid.

[RedTwoster]

13 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

The "modern day", which covers about the last 15 years, is full of these guys who are recycled time and again or given chance after chance to get over. Even more surprising is that fans are so forgiving these days that they'll tune in week after week and go "This guy is shit", "This guy is shit", "This guy is shit", "Does this guy have something?", "Oh no, this guy is still shit", "Mmm, you know, what maybe he does have something?", "Bloody hell, This guy is alright you know", "This guy is great". 

I didn’t watch in the Attitude Era, but would it be fair to suggest that Billy Gunn, Road Dogg, JBL, Hardcore Holly and Mark Henry are also examples of this? In the case of Henry, it wasn’t until his ECW run when he really started to click as an act.

It’s a really interesting post, but I feel like - again, perhaps wrongly as I wasn’t a viewer until 2002 - that this isn’t a particularly new phenomenon, it’s just that less wrestlers are released these days, so it feels like less acts are scrapped abruptly.

Edited January 21, 2025 by RedTwoster

[BomberPat]

12 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

I'm fascinated by this stuff. If you go back to their first boom, guys had a shelf life and a position on the card. Unless they were Tito Santana, they stayed a few years and then disappeared before they fell too far. They didn't really recycle guys or repackage them. Throughout the next 20 years or so, if you came in and were useless, you quickly disappeared. There were a few exceptions were they would recognise that the gimmick, not the guy, was the problem. Kane is the most obvious one. He wasn't great but he never had a chance with the Dentist or Fake Diesel gimmicks. 

On one hand, I think this was a benefit of having more places to work - when a wrestler outstayed their welcome, there was another promotion to go to, and we'll see more and more of that between WWE and AEW over time, I'm sure. For most of that "modern era", WWE was the only game in town, and they could just keep plugging away at someone until they found what sticks.

But also, I think you're overstating the extent to which people didn't stick around, or weren't repackaged. One of the things that really stands out to me when I go back and watch mid-90s WWF is how many of the familiar faces of the Attitude Era were knocking about during the "New Generation" or earlier;

Bob Holly to Hardcore Holly, Rockabilly/Smoking Gunns Billy Gunn to Bad Ass Billy Gunn/Mr Ass, The Roadie to Road Dogg, Fatu to Rikishi, 123 Kid to X-Pac, Mabel to Viscera, Papa Shango to Kama to The Godfather, Hunter Hearst Helmsley to Triple H, whichever Godwinn it was to Mideon, Avatar to Al Snow, Ringmaster to Stone Cold. Probably loads more I'm forgetting - cast the net wide enough, and you get to Golga. Now, a lot of those guys were far from useless, but some of them probably didn't warrant the number of go-arounds they got. They might not have plugged away at people for as long, but I think they were traditionally quicker to repackage and to try something new, whereas the defining trait of a lot of the "modern era" was, "you're getting Dolph Ziggler and The Miz, like it or not", with no significant change in their character for their entire run.

[Dr. Alan Grant]

13 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

cast the net wide enough, and you get to Golga.

What on Earth was Golga supposed to be? Why put a mask on someone that the audience would have recognised? Give him a Cartman doll…because reasons. I’ve never read anything about Golga to explain the thinking behind it.

Edited January 21, 2025 by Dr. Alan Grant

[tiger_rick]

18 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

On one hand, I think this was a benefit of having more places to work - when a wrestler outstayed their welcome, there was another promotion to go to, and we'll see more and more of that between WWE and AEW over time, I'm sure. For most of that "modern era", WWE was the only game in town, and they could just keep plugging away at someone until they found what sticks.

But also, I think you're overstating the extent to which people didn't stick around, or weren't repackaged. One of the things that really stands out to me when I go back and watch mid-90s WWF is how many of the familiar faces of the Attitude Era were knocking about during the "New Generation" or earlier;

Bob Holly to Hardcore Holly, Rockabilly/Smoking Gunns Billy Gunn to Bad Ass Billy Gunn/Mr Ass, The Roadie to Road Dogg, Fatu to Rikishi, 123 Kid to X-Pac, Mabel to Viscera, Papa Shango to Kama to The Godfather, Hunter Hearst Helmsley to Triple H, whichever Godwinn it was to Mideon, Avatar to Al Snow, Ringmaster to Stone Cold. Probably loads more I'm forgetting - cast the net wide enough, and you get to Golga. Now, a lot of those guys were far from useless, but some of them probably didn't warrant the number of go-arounds they got. They might not have plugged away at people for as long, but I think they were traditionally quicker to repackage and to try something new, whereas the defining trait of a lot of the "modern era" was, "you're getting Dolph Ziggler and The Miz, like it or not", with no significant change in their character for their entire run.

 

26 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

I didn’t watch in the Attitude Era, but would it be fair to suggest that Billy Gunn, Road Dogg, JBL, Hardcore Holly and Mark Henry are also examples of this? In the case of Henry, it wasn’t until his ECW run when he really started to click as an act.

Yes, fair points on the repackaging. Although I don't think many of the guys mentioned were as useless as a Kross has been. Billy Gunn, The Roadie, Fatu and HHH were all absolutley fine in their initial roles. They mostly went through what turned out to be brilliant evolutions eventually, with the odd exception like Rikishi just disappearing and then coming back so we could forget The Sultan ever happened.

People like Charles Wright, Fatu and Holly are the type of guys I mentioned that like Kane, they clearly liked (or had important friends) and wanted to find something for. They weren't like your Battlekats, Goons, Man Mountain Rocks, etc who they gave up on quickly because it wasn't worth the time. There were tons and tons of those guys from 1991-1997.

Mark Henry is an exception because they gave him a ridiculous contract and clearly regretted it. He was a hoot in 1998 but even then, there's no way he makes it to 1998 and if he did, then no way he makes it past 2000 without the contract.

  

27 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

It’s a really interesting post, but I feel like - again, perhaps wrongly as I wasn’t a viewer until 2002 - that this isn’t a particularly new phenomenon, it’s just that less wrestlers are released these days, so it feels like less acts are scrapped abruptly.

I think it's a more modern thing because the mid-2000s were brutal for bringing in guys and them being shit-canned before their feet had touched the mat. Sometimes not their own fault but they seemed to have plenty like Mordecai and Kizarny and the Heartbreakers and most of the Spirit Squad who came and went and we hardly knew ye.

Edited January 21, 2025 by tiger_rick

[LaGoosh]

3 hours ago, BomberPat said:

For one, Triple H was never a good technical wrestler, no matter how much they tried to convince us that him doing an Indian Deathlock every six months made him one.

The thing is - Triple H is an excellent brawler. All his best matches have loads of brawling in. Unfortunately he seemed dead set on convincing everyone he was a great "wrestler" like the NWA Champs of old and so he became one of the more boring main eventers in modern history. It's a shame because you'd get flashes of brilliance every now and again surrounded by the long, dull and repetitive shit.

[Chili]

On Golga as @Dr. Alan Grantasked, the scuttlebutt was that John Tenta was going to pop back in as Earthquake, but he had the nerve to lose weight, and apparently management felt he didn't look as imposing. Golga as a character with the mask I always assumed was to hide it was Earthquake, but also give a sort of carnival sideshow/elephant man vibe to him I thought. Crap gimmick but glad Tenta got some paydays, he absolutely SHOULD have got a Rumble 2002 spot when they gave him a tryout the month before and everyone loved seeing him.

Edited January 21, 2025 by Chili