The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[DavidB6937]

10 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

To be White? Going back to previous comments, fantastic we’re getting black champions, but the lack of colour in the title scene until a couple of years ago, when people have been there for a decade is noticeably.

Which black stars do you think have been overlooked over the years?

[Hannibal Scorch]

8 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

Which black stars do you think have been overlooked over the years?

You make stars. They didn’t want to pull the trigger. But Big E is at the top of that list with Lashley, Shelton Benjamin I think was a missed opportunity first time round. Keith Lee should be the next big thing, but don’t think he’ll get that push. Austin Creed and  Kofi could have both had good single runs, and they choked on Kofi. Riccohet is a mess on the main roster. 
 

Plus there are the talents on the Indy’s that were ignored for years like Scorpio Sky, Moose, Shane Taylor, Rich Swann. The talent is there, but it’s not been looking at black wrestling.

[tiger_rick]

They tried to make Shelton Benjamin and Bobby Lashley. WWE have been racist throughout the years, promoting offensive stereotypes until well into the 2000s. Maybe later if stuff like the Kofi "push" offends. There's more than enough rope to hang them without pretending they care what colour a superstar is. Vince would make money of a little green man if Hornswoggle was up for it.

[Perry]

They pretty much admit to their racism in the storyline when they gave Faarooq that title shot at KOTR 97. 

"Let me ask you something Vince, why has there never been a black man as world champion?"

[DavidB6937]

36 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

You make stars. They didn’t want to pull the trigger. But Big E is at the top of that list with Lashley, Shelton Benjamin I think was a missed opportunity first time round. Keith Lee should be the next big thing, but don’t think he’ll get that push. Austin Creed and  Kofi could have both had good single runs, and they choked on Kofi. Riccohet is a mess on the main roster. 
 

Plus there are the talents on the Indy’s that were ignored for years like Scorpio Sky, Moose, Shane Taylor, Rich Swann. The talent is there, but it’s not been looking at black wrestling.

A lot of it comes down to personal opinion I suppose. I've never once considered Lashley to be a worthy main title holder until his Hurt Business run. I've never thought Shelton really deserved any more than he got either. Ricochet could certainly be getting something better than he has but his weaknesses were always going to be his lack of personality etc. 

I'd probably argue that Kofi actually over-achieved by winning the title, despite the shitty ending. He was never someone most people were clamouring to get a run on top.

Maybe it's better late than never with Big E but he's also been in a prominent successful position for a good number of years.

Keith Lee is definitely the biggest fuck up they've done in recent memory.

I guess it's two conversations that cross over - not only their racism in some areas, but their failed pushes of people too. The latter has plenty of white stars in it too.

[Vamp]

Wasn't there a lot of fuss in Lashley's first run about the colour of his eyes and his soft voice or did I imagine that? 

The WWE are still racist, obviously, but I seem to remember those were the things fans were talking about at the time.

[Jesse]

It's also a structural problem across the industry (and our society in general). Wrestling is something that takes investment to get into - you spend years losing money on it - and black people are generally less likely to be able to afford to do that. Then, with biases present from the racism that pervades our culture, less of the black people that are able to invest that time & money will be given the opportunities of their white colleagues.

Then you make it to WWE, and they have a history of not getting behind & sticking with anyone that doesn't fit a mould of previous stars - so it's even easier for one word from a colleague higher-up (say, Randy Orton) to make sure they don't stick behind you. So you've got roadblocks at every step that statistically your white colleagues have less of (which is why it's important to look at generally and not as individuals - there are plenty of white people who won't make it past the time & financial investment, or who have been cut off by a more powerful colleague's word) and it becomes easy to look at the end result of all those roadblocks and say of WWE (and AEW) "There aren't enough Black stars."

It's on us as consumers to argue for the companies to counteract those systemic roadblocks by putting in effort over and above the norm to make those Black stars. (As an aside, I would also make the argument that it's on the company morally to do that, but I'm aware many people disagree and think a company's only goal should be financially motivated.)

[BomberPat]

52 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

Vince would make money of a little green man if Hornswoggle was up for it.

I think Vince, and a lot of people around him, believe this, but I don't think it really holds up. In theory, if he knew he could make money off anyone of any race, nationality, or whatever, Vince would get behind that person and do just that.

But in practice, he seems to have a narrow view of who's likely to make money, and people who don't fit that profile are unlikely to get the opportunities of those who do. That could be about race, it could be about the Vince Russo-ism that Americans will never support a non-American babyface, or it could be Vince not thinking audiences would get behind CM Punk or Daniel Bryan because they wouldn't be able to relate to someone who didn't drink beer or eat meat. 

 

[Jesse]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I think Vince, and a lot of people around him, believe this, but I don't think it really holds up. In theory, if he knew he could make money off anyone of any race, nationality, or whatever, Vince would get behind that person and do just that.

But in practice, he seems to have a narrow view of who's likely to make money, and people who don't fit that profile are unlikely to get the opportunities of those who do. That could be about race, it could be about the Vince Russo-ism that Americans will never support a non-American babyface, or it could be Vince not thinking audiences would get behind CM Punk or Daniel Bryan because they wouldn't be able to relate to someone who didn't drink beer or eat meat. 

 

And we've seen this in action - with Miro and the "They're selling out your t-shirts because we didn't make many of them, and anyone that supports you is doing it ironically" or whatever their excuse was

[David]

11 minutes ago, Jesse said:

It's on us as consumers to argue for the companies to counteract those systemic roadblocks by putting in effort over and above the norm to make those Black stars.

If it's someone who's blatantly a lot better than they're being given the chance to show, then absolutely. 

[tiger_rick]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I think Vince, and a lot of people around him, believe this, but I don't think it really holds up. In theory, if he knew he could make money off anyone of any race, nationality, or whatever, Vince would get behind that person and do just that.

But in practice, he seems to have a narrow view of who's likely to make money, and people who don't fit that profile are unlikely to get the opportunities of those who do. That could be about race, it could be about the Vince Russo-ism that Americans will never support a non-American babyface, or it could be Vince not thinking audiences would get behind CM Punk or Daniel Bryan because they wouldn't be able to relate to someone who didn't drink beer or eat meat.

I think that's absolutely true but I think it's true regardless of colour. In the same way Vince doesn't think Punk or Bryan are it and Cena and Orton are, he doesn't think Kofi is it and he thinks Lashley is. The entire industry has been inherently racist for it's entire existence and I don't know Vince anymore than the next man but I do think they've made efforts to change their approach in the past decade and a bit more. There are certainly greater opportunities for performers of colour, or maybe more accurately, fewer barriers, and they're far less likely to end up portraying some stereotype with a tiny shelf life. Not completely unlikely (eh Jinder?) but much less.

[HarmonicGenerator]

1 minute ago, tiger_rick said:

I think that's absolutely true but I think it's true regardless of colour. In the same way Vince doesn't think Punk or Bryan are it and Cena and Orton are, he doesn't think Kofi is it and he thinks Lashley is. The entire industry has been inherently racist for it's entire existence and I don't know Vince anymore than the next man but I do think they've made efforts to change their approach in the past decade and a bit more. There are certainly greater opportunities for performers of colour, or maybe more accurately, fewer barriers, and they're far less likely to end up portraying some stereotype with a tiny shelf life. Not completely unlikely (eh Jinder?) but much less.

I (vaguely) remember in Jericho's second book he makes reference to repeated occasions where Vince would hold up Bobo Brazil as the best example of a babyface and one of his all-time favourite wrestlers. But then you look at the track record with him in charge and it's really not great. There are people of colour who've made it to the very top of WWE like The Rock, but depictions of Black culture and characters who can be summed up by "is Black" have to count against him. And that's not even taking into account things like Booker T at WrestleMania XIX.

[BomberPat]

I was at college with a bloke whose brother was a wrestler, but he hated it. He argued that wrestling was racist by pointing out that just one black bloke had played a voodoo witchdoctor, a black nationalist, and a pimp. His brother countered with, "yeah, but they made Booker T a king".

[Hannibal Scorch]

Also, The Rock was always played up for his Samoan heritage over his black heritage. He was their first black champion if you take that view, but I don’t feel when he was on top that was how it was played out. 

[BomberPat]

Just now, Hannibal Scorch said:

Also, The Rock was always played up for his Samoan heritage over his black heritage. He was their first black champion if you take that view, but I don’t feel when he was on top that was how it was played out. 

without getting into a problematic "how black is The Rock?" debate, I think the important thing to take away from that is that The Rock was able to succeed because there were exceptional circumstances that don't exist for the vast majority of black (or white) wrestlers - and that comes down to opportunity again. We're all aware that there were multiple points where The Rock's career could have been cut short and the company just cut their losses with him, or stuck with him as a "happy to be here" smiling babyface. But it's because of his family and his background (and, potentially, the fear of releasing anyone during the Monday Night Wars) that they stuck with him and allowed him the opportunities to grow into a better performer. Most wrestlers aren't granted either the immediate push, or the reinvention and second chances, that The Rock was - and I think, historically, black or other minority wrestlers are less likely to be given that second chance, because they already don't fit the bill of what a top drawing babyface "should" be.

I think there's still an element of some promoters looking at things the way Bill Watts used Junkyard Dog, which is that if you've got one black babyface, that's all you need - basically seeing race as a gimmick to appeal to a section of the fanbase, and a box to be ticked. To give WWE credit, as @tiger_rick said, I think they've mostly moved as far away from this as any major wrestling promotion in memory ever has. 

On top of that, there's an interview Booker T did around the time Hogan was outed as a racist, when he said that he felt not many black kids get into wrestling because it's not been a historical "escape" for them the way that something like basketball or American football can be. I don't know enough about amateur wrestling to know how much representation there is there, but in pro-wrestling it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy - if you don't get into it because you don't see yourself represented (or the only version of "yourself" you see is Tony Atlas dressing up in mock-Zulu gear as Saba Simba), then you're less likely to be represented, and the next generation are less likely to see themselves...and so on. It takes a breakout star in specifically African-American circles, maybe - in The People vs. OJ Simpson, there's a lot made of OJ having fostered an image of himself as a celebrity, not a black celebrity, and it could be pretty convincingly argued that The Rock has done the same thing, so perhaps he's not a star that specifically reaches black audiences in the way someone like Big E or Bianca Belair potentially could.

 

On the point about The Rock's family, and Vince's love of Bobo Brazil, I've always felt that Vince has a real affection for wrestlers who were around before he ran the company. He seems to hold them in higher esteem than those who worked for him, and doesn't seem to add up with how he treats younger talent. He also seems to make a point of finding spots for second or third generation wrestlers when the father/grandfather was able to do good business for him, or was around pre-him running the company, or early in the WWF's success. Not that this accounts for very many wrestlers, in the grand scheme of things, but there aren't many multi-generational black wrestlers or wrestling families with the kind of history that appeals to him. Off the top of my head there's really just also-rans like Bobo Brazil Jr. - there's no black equivalent of the Harts, the Anoais or the Von Erichs.