Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[Jonny Vegas]

8 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

 

Once again though, the tone of this all leans in the direction of "well a court probably wouldn't consider this rape", rather than any acknowledgement in any of your posts that regardless of what a court might legally consider the offence as they're quite clearly serious sexual and mental abuse allegations that do amount to serious criminal charges.

As I've already said, to her as the potential victim, who potentially endured all that abuse both at the time and possibly for several years after it occurred without seeing it as the abuse that it is because of the emotional complications involved its very common for victims to then simplify this sort of alleged abuse in their minds as "rape".

I don't see how anyone doing that but you not being able to find someone who's been specifically convicted of rape in similar circumstances has any correlation to whether or not she's telling the truth. My opinion remains the same that whether you're intending to or not you're still leaning heavily on the side of lets assume this womans lieing because its happened before and to people I know, even in your own words saying you're "dissecting" her claims.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Jonny Vegas

[Devon Malcolm]

I've said it before about this thread and the last couple of pages or so have laid it bare. So much time dedicated to discussing burdens of proof and what constitutes abuse and so on and so forth. And that's precisely the reason why so many survivors choose not to come forward with their stories and why, when they do, face the probability that their abusers will not receive punishment - whether that be legal or professional. The entire point of this thread and discussions like this get diluted and, ultimately, work in the favour of abusers. This needs to change and, sadly, #SpeakingOut hasn't seemingly made much of a difference.

[Guest]

The disappointing thing with speaking out is it’s over a year in, and no one in the industry has stepped forward and led to place what consequences should be for cases that don’t involve a conviction by law.
 

Actions should have consequences, not all consequences should be equal as not all acts have been equal. All we have at this point is sack & blacklist or nothing. That’s too wide a margin in the real world. 

The only measured response has been to Sammy Guevarras rape comments that seen a month ban and training. It just feels that wrestling is sadly far too fractured to get some kind of consistent punishment system in place. As long as there are no proper punishments, many will fly along low enough to not reach sacking levels, while it looks like it’s been ignored. I don’t see things being concluded and the anger to stay with all of us who wants to see things fixed. 

[Gordon_The_Gopher]

13 minutes ago, Louch said:

The disappointing thing with speaking out is it’s over a year in, and no one in the industry has stepped forward and led to place what consequences should be for cases that don’t involve a conviction by law.
 

Actions should have consequences, not all consequences should be equal as not all acts have been equal. All we have at this point is sack & blacklist or nothing. That’s too wide a margin in the real world. 

The only measured response has been to Sammy Guevarras rape comments that seen a month ban and training. It just feels that wrestling is sadly far too fractured to get some kind of consistent punishment system in place. As long as there are no proper punishments, many will fly along low enough to not reach sacking levels, while it looks like it’s been ignored. I don’t see things being concluded and the anger to stay with all of us who wants to see things fixed. 

I know of 2 promotions who have implemented safeguarding officers (independent appointed individuals, no one linked to wrestling) who have reviewed and provided recommendations on whether or not to continue to book someone. They've also been involved in conflict resolution which ultimately led to someone, who acted inappropriately towards a female talent and her partner, leaving wrestling altogether.

It's small steps in a very, very long walk but it's moving forwards.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

1 hour ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I thought we were having a level headed and civil chat, but clearly you're just a bit of a prick.

Once again though, the tone of this all leans in the direction of "well a court probably wouldn't consider this rape"....

You just changed the goal post there. That's NOT what you originally said. Your original accusation was that I was defending a sexual predator, which I wasn't. 

At the time people were talking about whether he was a rapist, and was throwing in my two cents as to whether the courts would consider that. I didn't say anything about his innocence or guilt. You are putting words into my mouth.  

... rather than any acknowledgement in any of your posts that regardless of what a court might legally consider the offence as they're quite clearly serious sexual and mental abuse allegations that do amount to serious criminal charges.

Yeah they do. But then you didn't ask that so I wouldn't of put that in my post when I responded to you. What she described is horrific and I hope it's investigated and the truth is brought to light so justice can prevail.

I don't see how anyone doing that but you not being able to find someone who's been specifically convicted of rape in similar circumstances has any correlation to whether or not she's telling the truth.

And I never said that. I never said that "because no one was convicted of rape via emotional blackmail she's clearly lying." You're putting words in my mouth to try and fit whatever narrative you've decided in your head. 

My opinion remains the same that whether you're intending to or not you're still leaning heavily on the side of lets assume this womans lieing because its happened before and to people I know, even in your own words saying you're "dissecting" her claims.

Well you're opinion is fucking wrong. I'm not assuming she's lying at all. I clearly stated "I DON'T KNOW" very... VERY... clearly in my post when I responded to you.  

I get it. You like to come online and be justifiably angry. Everyone else is a bad guy but you. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy. Good for you.

But clearly, regardless of what I say, you've already decided I'm a rape apologist. Which I'm not. So why don't you, with all due respect, go fuck off and die. 

 

 

[DavidB6937]

And inevitably the topic descends into shouting and swearing and arguing. Just like this subject matter does wherever it pops up.

You'll always get some level headed and reasonable discussion that is well informed. But message boards and social media is all full of this kind of unnecessary shit. You end up losing the whole point of what you were discussing in the first place and petty personal squabbles take over.

People that try to have a proper discussion about sensitive subjects like these are always fighting a losing battle online sadly.

[SuperBacon]

People telling others to (with all due respect) go fuck off and die.

Happy Sunday everyone!

[Keith Houchen]

3 hours ago, tiger_rick said:

appreciate your history on this subject and have read it many times on here and Twitter. I try to take this approach. I've said before but someone very close to me had his life ruined by a spiteful accusation so there's always some caution, I won't lie.

One of the hardest things legally is to approach the situation with absolutely zero emotion. It’s nigh on impossible. I find using the innocent until proven guilty line attempts to diffuse any bias a person may have because they have to apply the thinking they used for the celebrity they like to the complainant they don’t. 
 

I think the recent Johnny Depp libel case encapsulated this in terms of bias. His fans saying it was disgusting that he lost when he was on the receiving end of abuse but that wasn’t the issue. He was saying he didn’t hit Amber Heard when it’s provable he did. Yes, he did so in self defence on occasion so when it was reported he was physical with her, it was true. There are circumstances and context around why he got physical but for the sake of the case and legal arguments, that’s immaterial. This is a point about our perceived bias, and why justice and investigations need to be devoid of emotion, just to clarify. 

[Tamura]

13 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

Was doing some reading on it, but it appears the behavior isn't considered rape legally, or at least I could not find anything online where someone was convicted of rape based on emotional coercion.

Where were you "doing some reading" on it, the replies to tweets by AEW fans? Did you miss the Harvey Weinstein conviction? As for the rest of your comment, why would something need to be legally classed as rape before AEW need to take action?

Edited August 8, 2021 by Tamura

[Hannibal Scorch]

1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said:

One of the hardest things legally is to approach the situation with absolutely zero emotion. It’s nigh on impossible. I find using the innocent until proven guilty line attempts to diffuse any bias a person may have because they have to apply the thinking they used for the celebrity they like to the complainant they don’t. 
 

I think the recent Johnny Depp libel case encapsulated this in terms of bias. His fans saying it was disgusting that he lost when he was on the receiving end of abuse but that wasn’t the issue. He was saying he didn’t hit Amber Heard when it’s provable he did. Yes, he did so in self defence on occasion so when it was reported he was physical with her, it was true. There are circumstances and context around why he got physical but for the sake of the case and legal arguments, that’s immaterial. This is a point about our perceived bias, and why justice and investigations need to be devoid of emotion, just to clarify. 

The problem with all of these cases is what is on trial. Amber Heard has admitted on tape she physically assorted Depp numerous times. However, the trial wasn’t about what she had done, it was on what he had done. 
 

I was on jury for a case of sexual assault. The one thing we were told was you can have absolutely no doubts with what the charges are and what evidence there is. There were holes in the story as well as the medical and police reports,  which were evidence in the case. Even if we thought the accused was guilty of something, it had to be what he was accused of, not something else. It was a hard experience to go through.

[Keith Houchen]

9 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

The problem with all of these cases is what is on trial. Amber Heard has admitted on tape she physically assorted Depp numerous times. However, the trial wasn’t about what she had done, it was on what he had done. 
 

I was on jury for a case of sexual assault. The one thing we were told was you can have absolutely no doubts with what the charges are and what evidence there is. There were holes in the story as well as the medical and police reports,  which were evidence in the case. Even if we thought the accused was guilty of something, it had to be what he was accused of, not something else. It was a hard experience to go through.

Yeah that’s the point I was trying to make!  You’re right of course. 
Im currently reading The Secret Barrister and he highlights how cuts in resources make things even harder for evidence to be considered correctly. I thought things were bad enough for anyone coming forward but after reading this book it seems they’re even worse than I imagined. It’s a real eye opener. 
 

I don’t think I’d be a good juror but as you say, you’re directed as to what you can and can’t consider. 

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Isnt it pretty much common knowledge that the reason certain people were fired was because the promoters knew what they were doing anyway and ignored it. The Joey Ryan stuff has been going about for so long, and it just continued. Ryan got that act over on the indies, and pretty much males and females were scared to get heat by refusing to touch his cock so felt pressured to do it. Because he'd go online and be like "hey its just an act" and have thousands of complete losers defending it. What I've learned from following wrestling as long as I have is that this shit isnt a surprise to anyone. Whether its Vince McMahon, Mark Dallas or Don Callis. They know what the boys get up to, and dont act on it because they think it'll hurt the brand they've coughed up.

Don Callis for example hired a fucking HR independent investigator to look into Impact's dodgy accusations, where he had access to her email address to see what the complains were. And he was one of those under investigation! Yet AEW just snaps him up immediately after Impact seperates from him.

Edited August 8, 2021 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Keith Houchen]

17 minutes ago, IANdrewDiceClay said:

Don Callis for example hired a fucking HR independent investigator to look into Impact's dodgy accusations, where he had access to her email address to see what the complains were. And he was one of those under investigation! Yet AEW just snaps him up immediately after Impact seperates from him.

Jobs for the boys, innit. 

[Tommy!]

2 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

I was on jury for a case of sexual assault

Makes a change for this place not to be in the dock. 

[Joe Blog]

46 minutes ago, IANdrewDiceClay said:

And he was one of those under investigation! Yet AEW just snaps him up immediately after Impact seperates from him

What was Callis accused of? Never saw his name crop up last time but there was so much going on it isn't hard to miss one of the stories.