Wrestling #MeToo #SpeakingOut

[tiger_rick]

41 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

An abusive relationship is an abusive relationship, whether it's physical or psychological. 

And how is it proven? Things aren't always black and white (no pun intended). There are two sides to every story. When it's a legal matter, we normally hear those sides and someone judges. Something moral is harder to judge.

I completely agree that if it is the case that the guy is abusive then he should be strongly disciplined and probably fired.

Cheers for the explanation @Keith HouchenSuspect that's far more common than we know and would probably make the conviction rates even tinier if considered. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by tiger_rick

[Keith Houchen]

It’s difficult. There are many people in abusive relationships who don’t know they are. Because they grew up in an abusive relationship they consider it normal and it’s only when the relationship ends do they become aware that their relationship was an abusive one. 
We’ve seen it time and again in wrestling, power is being abused as well as trainees being physically and mentally abused. Has anything changed since speaking out started? Do you think it will? I don’t.  Even if Allin gets convinced of rape there will be cunts who will employ him and cunts who will pay to see him. 

[Perry]

7 hours ago, Tommy! said:

Some comedian, might have been Skinner, did a bit after accusations were made against McCartney about how everyone instantly believed him but if he told people he thought some scouser was beating his wife they'd believe it without doubt and you can get away with anything if you wrote Let It Be. 

Probably was Frank.  Remember when Matthew Kelly went on his chat show after he was accused, and he said "now that you've shaved your beard off, you actually look like a nonce"

Kelly certainly didn't see the funny side of it.

[garynysmon]

For full disclosure, I should say that I can't stand Darby Allin anyway.

But the discourse on Twitter seems to be 'innocent until proven guilty,' which is total cobblers in instances such as these.

Both Joey Ryan and Michael Elgin were swiftly sacked by Impact without ever appearing in court, on the basis of public allegations alone. Clearly others have been let go by various companies too, such as Jimmy Havoc.

Its also standard practice in most sports to end up suspended on full pay while such allegations are investigated.

Doing nothing just because Darby Allin is in a reasonably featured storyline isn't really acceptable is it?

[Keith Houchen]

6 minutes ago, garynysmon said:

But the discourse on Twitter seems to be 'innocent until proven guilty,' which is total cobblers in instances such as these.

My standard reply to this is always along the lines of “You’re absolutely right, the woman who made the allegation is totally innocent until proven guilty that she made it up” Quite often, they tend to not mention it again. 

[DEF]

Agreed. He needs suspending ASAP and investigating. Bollocks to plans. Real life crimes trump play fighting any day in my book.

[Tommy!]

1 hour ago, Perry said:

Probably was Frank.  Remember when Matthew Kelly went on his chat show after he was accused, and he said "now that you've shaved your beard off, you actually look like a nonce"

Kelly certainly didn't see the funny side of it.

There's clips of Kelly after he was cleared giving him shit on his show, saying his jokes killed his career. Skinner didn't look as uncomfortable again until photos of badiel in black face with a pineapple on his head did the rounds last year.

Props too him, he worked to salvage the interview though and he held his own.

[Jonny Vegas]

6 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Legally, what is he accused of? He’s been mentally abusive, but she states never physical. But she mentions rape, which I know isn’t a black and white term, but is cohesive behaviour to make her feel she has to have sex considered rape in the eyes of the law? I honestly don’t know enough on what is considered it or not.  

Clearly he’s been an absolute dickhead though, and will be interesting to see if any action is taken

 "He also would threaten to leave me if I didn't have sex with him or do sexual things and preform sex acts with him. I took me a long time to realize that threatening someone to have sex with you isn't consent. It's rape. I struggle with this to this day and have so many fears around sex and around intimacy," she added.

 

The above quote seems to be what she's making the rape allegation regarding. 

I think anyone with even a hint of humanity can agree that pressuring someone, particularly someone they've built up a relationship supposed to be based on trust and affection into carrying out sex acts on them under duress is fucking abhorrent behaviour.

Criminality wise in the US its classed as sexual coercion and is (rightly) treated as a serious crime. Whilst she technically "gave consent" to the acts by carrying them out or allowing them to be carried out in the US its (rightly) seen that consent under duress is not consent.

 

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

2 hours ago, garynysmon said:

Both Joey Ryan and Michael Elgin were swiftly sacked by Impact without ever appearing in court, on the basis of public allegations alone. Clearly others have been let go by various companies too, such as Jimmy Havoc.

The evidence (in the form of the vast number of accusations and statements against him) for Ryan was OVERWHELMING! Plus Elgin had a prior history of shitty abusive behavior that was screen grabbed and cataloged. I was amazed Impact took Elgin in the first place. It's really not the same. 

Was doing some reading on it, but it appears the behavior isn't considered rape legally, or at least I could not find anything online where someone was convicted of rape based on emotional coercion.

There was a a fair bit written on duress = rape, but examples given are things like being held at gun point, a threat of significant physical harm or genuine blackmail which I don't think a court would consider this to be.

I try to be cautious of these things. I don't want dirt bags in wrestling. But I've also seen first hand malicious accusations based on people who were in shitty relationships. It's a horrible business. 

 

[Hannibal Scorch]

1 hour ago, Jonny Vegas said:

 "He also would threaten to leave me if I didn't have sex with him or do sexual things and preform sex acts with him. I took me a long time to realize that threatening someone to have sex with you isn't consent. It's rape. I struggle with this to this day and have so many fears around sex and around intimacy," she added.

 

The above quote seems to be what she's making the rape allegation regarding. 

I think anyone with even a hint of humanity can agree that pressuring someone, particularly someone they've built up a relationship supposed to be based on trust and affection into carrying out sex acts on them under duress is fucking abhorrent behaviour.

Criminality wise in the US its classed as sexual coercion and is (rightly) treated as a serious crime. Whilst she technically "gave consent" to the acts by carrying them out or allowing them to be carried out in the US its (rightly) seen that consent under duress is not consent.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course I think it’s abhorrent behaviour. What I’m uneasy with is the term used here to describe it. I have had close family and friends  sexually assaulted in the most extreme ways, which were considered rape.

I have been in abusive relationships, and which only realised later on because it was mentally not physically. And there are definitely occasions where I feel I was pressured into having sex because of keeping someone happy or that it was “the right thing to do”. But I wouldn’t go as far as to class it as rape. 
 

And that’s why I’m trying to understand what can/should be done here. Because I’m America if cohesion is considered rape, he needs to be trialed and AEW need to bin him off in the meantime. If it isn’t, my guess is public apology, training course and some time on leave.
 

Look at Riddle. Was accused of actual physical sexual assault and he’s gotten a push out of it! I’m assuming for the same reason “Didn’t happen under our watch”. The industry will take years before it gets anywhere near clean enough for most of our liking.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Hannibal Scorch

[Jonny Vegas]

20 minutes ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

Was doing some reading on it, but it appears the behavior isn't considered rape legally, or at least I could not find anything online where someone was convicted of rape based on emotional coercion.

There was a a fair bit written on duress = rape, but examples given are things like being held at gun point, a threat of significant physical harm or genuine blackmail which I don't think a court would consider this to be.

 

Genuine question here...without her having made any direct, detailed allegation whatsoever and only to my knowledge having made that relatively vague mention in a tweet  what gives you the evidence or information to judge on what you think a court would consider whatever her actual allegations are to be or not to be?

I get that you've been right in the middle of the business and have seen some shitty things, its a fucking horrible business. I also get that people are wrongly accused of things, you may have even had friends who have beem and that is awful. I actually think its awful to the extent that it is not only severely traumatic for those falsely accused but also massively harmful to the victims of legitimate allegations.

You definitely are giving off the impression of blindly defending a possible sexual predator just incase the accuser wasn't telling the truth though, even going as far as to make assumptions about how a court would judge an allegation that hasn't to my knowledge been directly made.

[Jonny Vegas]

16 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course I think it’s abhorrent behaviour. What I’m in easy with is the term used here to describe it. I have had close family and friends  sexually assaulted in the most extreme ways, which were considered rape.

I have been in abusive relationships, and which only realised later on because it was mentally not physically. And there are definitely occasions where I feel I was pressured into having sex because of keeping someone happy or that it was “the right thing to do”. But I wouldn’t go as far as to class it as rape. 
 

And that’s why I’m trying to understand what can/should be done here. Because I’m America if cohesion is considered rape, he needs to be trialed and AEW need to bin him off in the meantime. If it isn’t, my guess is public apology, training course and some time on leave.
 

I'm really sorry to hear about your experiences and haven't intended to cause any offence if I did at all.

My opinion on it is that regardless of what a court of law would class the allegations as, they're undoubtedly allegations of serious mental and sexual abuse, which  she perceives and potentially "simplifies" by referring to as rape as that's how she now understands it.

Wrestling companies aren't exactly well known for acting on good morals, most businesses aren't. They act on pressure. A serious but as yet unsubstantiated allegation which appears to have gained little mainstream media attention against one of their top stars a week or less before potentially a very high profile match or moment is probably unlikely to see any reaction.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Jonny Vegas

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

1 hour ago, Jonny Vegas said:

Genuine question here...without her having made any direct, detailed allegation whatsoever and only to my knowledge having made that relatively vague mention in a tweet  what gives you the evidence or information to judge on what you think a court would consider whatever her actual allegations are to be or not to be?

Because I had a look and can't find any examples where someone was convicted on rape based on emotional coercion. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone can find a ligit example.

She herself has detailed what she considered rape; it wasn't a physical attack, or done via what a court may consider duress, it was done via emotional blackmail. That's not to say what he did makes him a good person, I have no idea. He might be the biggest shit bag ever.

On a final side note, I've previously worked in areas of legal insurance so Im basing this on my past experience on how courts handle and on my reading. There of course way more experience and learned people in this area, so always happy to be shown something that contradicts my opinion.

I get that you've been right in the middle of the business and have seen some shitty things, its a fucking horrible business.

Still involved in the business. I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but Ive seen the damage the last few years have done to people who have been ligitimate victims, and also those where people have been called out by people grinding an axe. It's been a real dark period for a lot of reason.  

I also get that people are wrongly accused of things, you may have even had friends who have been and that is awful. I actually think its awful to the extent that it is not only severely traumatic for those falsely accused but also massively harmful to the victims of legitimate allegations.

You definitely are giving off the impression of blindly defending a possible sexual predator just incase the accuser wasn't telling the truth though, even going as far as to make assumptions about how a court would judge an allegation that hasn't to my knowledge been directly made.

I haven't defended Darby Allin once. Because I don't know him.

I merely dissected what was presented by his ex partner and what information I found. If I found an example of emotional blackmail being linked to a rape conviction, I would say that. But I didn't. 

I deal with the info I find. For example, when the Elgin story came up, based on what was available, you could clearly see Elgin was a sack of shit that needed to go. In addition with Joey Ryan, the sheer numbers of stories and the fact some of them came from people I personally know and trust meant he didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of decent or redeemed.

I try my best to form a three dimensional opinion. I try my best to avoid forming a over simplistic or black / white opinion of things, which is far to easy to do in the current digital / social media landscape. So yeah, Im not backing either party. Im not coming out outright saying "he's a rapist / abuser" or "she's a liar" because there is so little we know. 
 

 

[tiger_rick]

6 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

I try my best to form a three dimensional opinion. I try my best to avoid forming a over simplistic or black / white opinion of things, which is far to easy to do in the current digital / social media landscape. So yeah, Im not backing either party. Im not coming out outright saying "he's a rapist / abuser" or "she's a liar" because there is so little we know. 

This is where I'm at too. It's one person's word against another and I'm trying to establish the best course of action for dealing with it without calling the accuser a liar of hanging the accused without a trial. I think it's a tough one, honestly.

10 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

My standard reply to this is always along the lines of “You’re absolutely right, the woman who made the allegation is totally innocent until proven guilty that she made it up” Quite often, they tend to not mention it again. 

I appreciate your history on this subject and have read it many times on here and Twitter. I try to take this approach. I've said before but someone very close to me had his life ruined by a spiteful accusation so there's always some caution, I won't lie.

[mim731]

8 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Look at Riddle. Was accused of actual physical sexual assault and he’s gotten a push out of it! 

There's plenty of atrocious accusations to throw at WWE, and for largely good reason. However, saying they actively rewarded someone because they were accused of rape seems like a stretch to me. They may have turned a blind eye, which is abhorrent, but I don't think there's any grounds to suggest those accusations were s catalyst for him getting a push, in fairness.