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Gus Mears

General Erection 2019

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16 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

But if there was a split, do we really think the north would get the infrastructural improvement and investments in industry it needs?

Probably not, but at least it would be one step closer to the Merseyside-Manchester Red Corridor being able to declare independence from this shithole country.

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1 hour ago, PowerButchi said:

You've pretty much just summed up why we always want England to fail in sporting events though, which is nice.

I think even the English secretly want England to fail in sporting events. Gives us something else to complain about.

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Just unreal....

They can't seriously want Rebecca Long-Bailey for leader and Richard Burgon as deputy? Will they learn nothing? Wrong Daily and a guy caught out on video stating "Zionism is the enemy of peace". If that happens then there is no point of even calling the next election, the Conservatives have already won it......

Just give Jess Phillips or Keir Starmer the nod. At least there will be a credible opposition.

Edited by MPDTT

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Honestly, if its Long-Bailey and Burgon taking over then I'd say it's more likely that the Labour Party gets replaced as the official opposition in 2024 than it would be for them to get into Government. 

The best possible combination would be Dan Jarvis with Yvette Cooper as deputy, but it'll never happen. Of the realistic options I think Keir Starmer as leader, Dawn Butler as deputy would at least be a step forward. 

Edited by AVM

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15 minutes ago, MPDTT said:

Just unreal....

They can't seriously want Rebecca Long-Bailey for leader and Richard Burgon as deputy? Will they learn nothing? Wrong Daily and a guy caught out on video stating "Zionism is the enemy of peace". If that happens then there is no point of even calling the next election, the Conservatives have already won it......

Just give Jess Phillips or Keir Starmer the nod. At least there will be a credible opposition.

Don’t do this again. It’s the ultimate cringe.

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16 minutes ago, MPDTT said:

Just unreal....

They can't seriously want Rebecca Long-Bailey for leader and Richard Burgon as deputy? Will they learn nothing? Wrong Daily and a guy caught out on video stating "Zionism is the enemy of peace".

Where's the lie? And again, what do you care who's the new leader? If your prediction is correct then the Tories stay in power even longer and you can stay happy. So stop worrying about what the other side are doing and keep pulling your plonker in propping up a racist, homophobic, transphobic, borderline fascist government.

9 minutes ago, AVM said:

Honestly, if its Long-Bailey and Burgon taking over then I'd say it's more likely that the Labour Party gets replaced as the official opposition in 2024 than it would be for them to get into Government.

I'll bet you hundreds of fucking pounds this doesn't happen.

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14 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Where's the lie? And again, what do you care who's the new leader? If your prediction is correct then the Tories stay in power even longer and you can stay happy. So stop worrying about what the other side are doing and keep pulling your plonker in propping up a racist, homophobic, transphobic, borderline fascist government.

He's said repeatedly his interest is in having a strong opposition and that he's not a Tory voter. So just repeating this 'mind your own business' position doesn't really make sense.

It's a fairly strong voice calling for centrism in Labour. You might not like it or agree with it, but that doesn't make anyone who does a Tory.

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16 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

 And again, what do you care who's the new leader? If your prediction is correct then the Tories stay in power even longer and you can stay happy. So stop worrying about what the other side are doing and keep pulling your plonker in propping up a racist, homophobic, transphobic, borderline fascist government.

 

Is this not part of the issue? Labour will need to win back the supporters they lost. I dont know anyone here that does not want a strong viable opposition. I voted for blairs labour, i also voted tory.

 Could i vote labour again of course i could. 

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3 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

He's said repeatedly his interest is in having a strong opposition and that he's not a Tory voter. So just repeating this 'mind your own business' position doesn't really make sense.

It's a fairly strong voice calling for centrism in Labour. You might not like it or agree with it, but that doesn't make anyone who does a Tory.

His interest was in Brexit, that's all. He wouldn't have voted LibDems if they weren't saying they would scrap Brexit. Pretty much everything that he has parroted in this thread (and others) has been the classic Tory line. It's like having our very own Toby Young. Capitalism's great! What's wrong with Zionism! Corbyn hates Jews! It's absolutely nothing to do having a strong opposition at all. It's absolutely a clear case of anti-socialism, which he has stated numerous times on this forum.

Now if you'll excuse me, DPD are just delivering my hammer and sickle.

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21 hours ago, JNLister said:

"Now it's time to reunite the country and heal the division."

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How does this compare over time? Is it true to say that young people always vote on the left and then over time become Tories? If you took this snapshot in 1970 would you've seen the same thing? Have those 18 year olds in 1970 voting for left parties now migrated into the 49% and 62% blue bars for 55-64 and 65+ year olds?

Is it a matter of time until we have a socialist government of is this picture just the order of things and no real reflection of what's like to happen in 20, 30, 40 years?

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It's a difficult one - do you actually get more conservative as you get older, or is it generational? Is it age, or is it being born at a certain time?

While the old adage is that you get more conservative as you get older, there has to be an element of generational shift - young people are growing up in a more socially liberal and open world than older generations, and have a different set of values as a result. They don't remember homosexuality being illegal, most 18 year olds probably have no real memory of a time before civil partnerships, and they've grown up in a culturally and ethnically much more diverse country, and a much more "politically correct" one too. They're also far more likely to have a university education than older generations, which could be argued means they have a greater degree of critical thinking, and also means they've likely encountered a broader range of views, and people from different backgrounds. I think the extent of generational shift probably counteracts the "get more right wing as you get older" effect.

All of this plays into why I think Labour abandoning the left, and the youth vote, amid talk of them having lost because they "became fixated on diversity", is potentially disastrous, as it would be at best short-termist, and risk alienating what will become a predominantly socially liberal population - and alienating the minorities that the logic "became fixated on diversity" suggests are little more than talking points or bargaining chips, rather than human beings (and voters!).

 

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There's also the fact that there are going to be considerably less old white racist cunts in this country and it's not going to be long before racial minorities are in the majority. But Labour still has to continue to engage with those communities, which is why Dawn Butler would be a shrewd candidate for at least deputy leader.

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I think the difficulty for your average young person getting on the housing ladder is going to, at worst, delay the onset of mid-life tory conversion, and at best minimise it.

Regarding the rush to the centre. Economic policy was only cited as a reason for 6% of people switching from Labour to Tory in this election. No need to scale back those nationalisation plans just yet.

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17 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

It's a difficult one - do you actually get more conservative as you get older, or is it generational? Is it age, or is it being born at a certain time?

While the old adage is that you get more conservative as you get older, there has to be an element of generational shift - young people are growing up in a more socially liberal and open world than older generations, and have a different set of values as a result. They don't remember homosexuality being illegal, most 18 year olds probably have no real memory of a time before civil partnerships, and they've grown up in a culturally and ethnically much more diverse country, and a much more "politically correct" one too. They're also far more likely to have a university education than older generations, which could be argued means they have a greater degree of critical thinking, and also means they've likely encountered a broader range of views, and people from different backgrounds. I think the extent of generational shift probably counteracts the "get more right wing as you get older" effect.

All of this plays into why I think Labour abandoning the left, and the youth vote, amid talk of them having lost because they "became fixated on diversity", is potentially disastrous, as it would be at best short-termist, and risk alienating what will become a predominantly socially liberal population - and alienating the minorities that the logic "became fixated on diversity" suggests are little more than talking points or bargaining chips, rather than human beings (and voters!).

 

All of this is true.  However, what classifies as conservatism also changes over time.

I'm fairly sure my parents generation in the 60s thought they were ushering in endless peace and tolerance in a generational shift.  Homosexuality was no longer illegal, the pill arrived, women's liberation really kicked in.

But the parameters of what was considered liberal kept developing, whereas a lot of people just become fixed in the morality of their youth.  So despite being lifelong liberals, and having some very close friends who are gay, my parents were opposed to gay marriage.

Similarly my generation that grew up with gay and black jokes in the schoolyard have lived through this change where homophobia and racism is no longer generally tolerated, gay marriage and so on.  BUT we're now faced with the potential social upset of the transgender movement, and even for many liberal people it's just a bit too confusing and too sudden, and people are struggling with it.

So perhaps it's not that people get more conservative as they get older, it's more that the Conservative party tends to represent a world view that is 20/30 years more traditional, and so people find themselves more aligned with those values as society continues to change.

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