King Pitcos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Accident Prone said: Again, someone backing their voting choice with hateful opinions isn't someone who you can debate with. Someone who hates a certain race, creed or sexual orientation/identification isn't going to be won over and isn't going to consider any opinion, and is the same goes for people who dismiss concerns of the NHS crumbling and the rising poverty levels. How often do you really come across someone saying “I hate darkies and faggots, and them cripples should be working or put down” nowadays? Lumping everyone into that category because they’re opposed to unfettered immigration and gay marriage and a massive welfare state, for example, is the sort of thing I’m talking about. I replied to your post, but I was more addressing the general theme of condescension and bile towards all Tory voters, not just the ones who hate pakis. A lot of these people will also be concerned about things like rising poverty levels and the failure of the NHS, they just think differently than you do about how to resolve them. And neither of you is completely wrong or right on how to achieve it. I am, though - the answer is hefty fines and prison sentences for jokers who abuse NHS services. And probably humanely killing old people earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: But that's something we should admire the French for, they'll strike over anything that gives them a bad deal where as us pork pie eating surrender bulldogs daren't do anything to upset the paymasters. Oh, absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: I was more addressing the general theme of condescension and bile towards all Tory voters, not just the ones who hate pakis. Vote tory get tory. You don't get to say "Well I didn't like that particular policy so I'm not accountable for that". If you voted for a party that have held policies for the last 9 years that have directly led to the deaths of poor people and the demonising of minorities, then I hold you in contempt. You know the score, opinions count for more than facts. I've challenged tory voters on why they are voting tory and pointed out the factual inaccuracies of what they are saying (as tory voters have done with Labour voters as well) but it won't change that persons opinion because they have made up their mind regardless of what they now know to be the bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 An informative but depressing thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 This makes no difference under the system we have, but it's kind of insane that Labour actually got more votes yesterday than it did in 2005 when it won a majority of 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Vote tory get tory. You don't get to say "Well I didn't like that particular policy so I'm not accountable for that". If you voted for a party that have held policies for the last 9 years that have directly led to the deaths of poor people and the demonising of minorities, then I hold you in contempt. Double post 🤘 Edited December 13, 2019 by King Pitcos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Vote tory get tory. You don't get to say "Well I didn't like that particular policy so I'm not accountable for that". If you voted for a party that have held policies for the last 9 years that have directly led to the deaths of poor people and the demonising of minorities, then I hold you in contempt. And that’s fine, as long as you’re happy with all it achieving is you being upset on the Internet the day after every election. It isn’t contributing anything to improving things, though. An elected (and thus electable) Labour Government might not be as pleasant as the fantasy Labour Government that your friends on Twitter want, but it’d probably kill less people than Team Boris will in the next few years. We’re just never going to get an electable Labour government as long as we’re all fine with Labour having become the party of privileged students who can afford to grandstand without compromise on every issue because they’re too well off to really be impacted by Tory cruelty. And that absolutely isn’t actually the case for everyone who votes Labour, but it is the impression given by the loudest and proudest. Supporting this no-hoper shitshow of a Labour Party has guaranteed more Tory rule, and every death and injustice that comes with it. Turkeys chanting for Christmas to the tune of Seven Nation Army. I’m fairly confident that the next few years aren’t going to be great, and I am very hopeful that yesterday served as a sharp reminder that there needs to be a realistic, credible alternative next time. I’ve basically just spent several posts enjoying the smell of my own farts when really it can be summed up as: In 2024, we need a Labour Party that represents a substantial amount of people who voted conservative yesterday, not a Labour Party that only represents people who call everyone who voted conservative yesterday a cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: And that’s fine, as long as you’re happy with all it achieving is you being upset on the Internet the day after every election. It isn’t contributing anything to improving things, though. An elected (and thus electable) Labour Government might not be as pleasant as the fantasy Labour Government that your friends on Twitter want, In all the years I've campaigned in politics, be it on the street, running stalls or leafletting, it's never been for the Labour party. But I voted for them this time because of the public transport analogy (They didn't stop right outside the front door but they were the closest to the vicinity I wanted to be in). When I argue with tory voters, it isn't to campaign for the Labour party, it's really to see if they are aware of the policies they are endorsing with their vote. If they are, then they're a cunt in my eyes. If they aren't, but still vote tory after realising what they're voting for, same thing applies. If they consider changing their vote, it's up to them who they vote for. As I've said before, I hate it when people treat political parties like a football team. So what if your dad voted for them, doesn't mean you have to. I agree with you about the next few years. I think a lot of tory voters yesterday will slowly realise that they won't "Get Brexit Done"quickly, and now he doesn't need the ERG support it could very well be a soft brexit. Which will ironically lead to a lot of "Well I didn't vote for that when I voted for Brexit" and maybe they'll want, I dunno, a vote on the half in half out deal on the table to say they don't want it. Labour got battered yesterday partly because they underestimated the importance of brexit over NHS and social care, my hope is that after 5 years, people will not have Brexit delivered like they thought it was going to be and services will be more fucked. They'll realise they voted for a charlatan and were had, so they'll change their vote. Above all though, I want to be wrong about how I believe the next few years will be, but given our PMs track record and the party he leads, I don't think I will be. I do hope so though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 42 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Above all though, I want to be wrong about how I believe the next few years will be, but given our PMs track record and the party he leads, I don't think I will be. I do hope so though. Me too, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 While the election results were terrible for anyone not voting Conservative, it's worth bearing in mind that this was a single topic election in which only one of the two major parties actually focused on said topic. Labour's approach to leaving the EU was shambolic for sure, and maybe didn't cost them the entire election, but it lost them a shitload of seats. Make no mistake, those former Labour heartlands weren't full of former Labour voters who were gleefully voting Conservative because they suddenly hate foreigners. It was done by most with a really heavy heart. From what I saw from afar, a lot of those people were looking for a reason, any reason, to vote for Labour. But Labour didn't give them it. What we don't need is a proper kneejerk reaction to this rather unusual election. Labour doesn't have to completely revamp its entire way of doing things, nor does it have to return to the days of Blair. What it has to do, in my humble opinion, is the following: It needs to elect a leader with charisma. Corbyn, as well-meaning as he is, had the personality of a wet blanket. In the era of personality politics, the Labour Party needs someone who can take the fight on that front to good ol' Boris (sorry Keith!) and sell themselves to the people. As has been shown with Boris, he or she doesn't even have to be the best person for the job politically, they just need to be the best person for soundbites and for wheeling out in front of the cameras. They can always have the proper politicians in the background doing the real work while the chosen figure is the official face of the party. The party now needs to shift focus to a post-Brexit Britain. What would Labour do to make the UK a success outside the EU? It has to look at what policies have drawn support for the Tories and look to take those concerns and issues and address them head-on. For example, if the talk of a points-based immigration system is what people seem to want, look to put together a points-based system that would actually work. The answer isn't to either ignore it, or even worse, tell people who want such a system that they're wrong or even racist for doing so. Look to counter the Tories with a reasonable, well thought out approach to the subject that will appeal to those who have concerns over immigration, while at the same time won't cause major issues for the country. For me, most people just want to know that the government has a handle on immigration. Create a points system that would largely allow the same qualified immigration we see today. It won't change much in reality, but it will let those concerned voters know that it's not a free for all (we know its not a free for all, but it has to be made really fucking clear to win this argument). The next chapter in the Labour Party has to see them seize upon post-Brexit Britain with a solid, workable plan that will appeal to the people by way of a charismatic, personality-loaded leader. Anything other than that will see failure continue I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Ronnie Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Keith Houchen said: But that's something we should admire the French for, they'll strike over anything ... Yes, they don't need asking twice. I used to live in France. One day I was walking through Toulouse on a Thursday, and happened upon a massive demonstration of teachers and students swarming down a boulevard. I asked one of them what was going on. The teacher explained that they were angry about the expulsion of a good student from their school after it had emerged that he or she was an illegal immigrant. But that wasn't what they were demonstrating about there and then: they'd already protested about that in Paris on the Tuesday. On this particular day, they were protesting that the train which took them to their earlier demonstration got them there fifteen minutes late. There was also the woman who on another day felt that a car might have got a bit too close to her and her bicycle in the narrow one-way streets just off the centre, and who then proceeded to hold up every other car for the next quarter of an hour with an impromptu protest in which she stood in the middle of the street and refused to get out of the way. Edited December 13, 2019 by Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPDTT Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said: Huh. I wrote that on my birthday when I was hammered. That was poor form and I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) Just for some perspective, remember that it's not that the entire Northern population has suddenly lurched to the right. On average it's about one person in ten moving from Labour to Conservative or Brexit Party. It's massive in its electoral effect but it's not a huge cultural shift. (And the same applied when people in southern towns were won over by Blair.) Edited December 13, 2019 by JNLister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rey_Piste Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 24 hours after seeing the exit polls, all I have to say is that I'm not angry. Just disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 2017 awesomeness. Edited December 13, 2019 by hallicks Wrong year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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