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Devon Malcolm

Labour Split / Independence Group

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Sarah Wolloston, Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry, for anyone who can't be bothered to go look it up.

I'm looking forward to seeing the difference in how the media treats this compared to Monday's news.

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9 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I'm looking forward to seeing the difference in how the media treats this compared to Monday's news.

You can bet the words 'brave' and 'decent' won't be peddled by the shit rags for these three.

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8 hours ago, Brewster McCloud said:

And I'd say the far left (to which Corbyn and his cronies belong) has had a long-standing issue with anti-semitism going back decades. It's the one thing that unites the lunatic fringes of the Left the Right. If the leader of the Labour party is a pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist (which is to say he implicitly supports the destruction of Israel), can the problem be justified with the "a few bad apples" defense?

It's to say he implicitly supports the "destruction" of Israel? Seriously?

I don't think you're quite as clued up on this matter as you think you are, as being supportive of the plight of a group of people who have been essentially thrown from their homeland is far from a stick to beat Corbyn with. If anything, it's one of his outstanding qualities.

This insane belief that anyone who dares to believe that the Palestinian people deserve more than they've been subjected to since the British decided to sign away their homeland is somehow anti-semitic is absolute nonsense.

Are there some members of the far-left who hate Jews? Probably, just as there are those with far-right leanings who hold similar views. They're known as wallopers, and there shouldn't be a place for them in the Labour party, or any other mainstream political party. 

But this silencing tactic used by some to try and gag those who openly support the plight of the Palestinian people, and who openly question and criticise the Israeli regime is more worrying than anything Corbyn has ever done or said.

Israel, like any other country, is fair game for criticism and being questioned. The old "anti-semitic" card is played in this instance by those who wish to negate that criticism, and by those who usually harbour their own hatred of what the Palestinian people represent.

This whole split is a good thing, because maybe we'll see Labour finally return to its left-wing roots, and a big part of left-wing ideology is supposed to be speaking up for those who face persecution, which the Palestinian people most certainly do at the hands of Israel.

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9 minutes ago, David said:

This insane belief that anyone who dares to believe that the Palestinian people deserve more than they've been subjected to since the British decided to sign away their homeland is somehow anti-semitic is absolute nonsense.

100% this, and it's the part I've really struggled to comprehend with some people's views over the past couple of years. To be against how Isreal have treated Palestine is somehow to generally be against an entire religion? It's bollocks and usually deflective behaviour.

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7 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

100% this, and it's the part I've really struggled to comprehend with some people's views over the past couple of years. To be against how Isreal have treated Palestine is somehow to generally be against an entire religion? It's bollocks and usually deflective behaviour.

Especially when many of the key figures in the struggle against how Israel as a state approaches the Palestinian issue are themselves Jewish! More than any other group on the planet, those of Jewish heritage know the effects that essentially ethnically cleansing a people can have, and while no one with any sense is directly comparing the Palestinian situation to the Jewish situation during the war, there are similarities.

Something else that's often lost in all of this is the direct involvement of Britain in this sorry saga, which is why having someone as high profile in British politics as Corbyn openly condemn the situation is quite refreshing. Don't get me wrong, he's far from perfect, but on this one particular topic he's bang on the fucking money in my opinion.

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39 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

2 more and they will be bigger than the Liberal Democrats. 

Already tied I think -- one Lib Dems quit a few weeks back to vote for May's deal. Also appears TIG is the biggest ever majority-female group in the Commons. (Others were single MPs and briefly the SNP in the late 60s )

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1 hour ago, PowerButchi said:

And here come the tories! 

As I predicted! Inevitable with the Tories lurching right and Labour to the left....I'm very interested in how this develops......

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Again, the issue around anti-semitism/criticism of Israel is that the latter can very easily stray into the other, and the key is that those of us who are critical of the current Israeli regime take note and be more introspective when that is pointed out to us, and many on the left very rarely do, because they default right back to the, "you're just using anti-semitism to deflect any criticism!", which is as deflective and as unhelpful as the canard you're accusing them of using. That was an unwieldy sentence, hopefully it makes sense.

In my experience, many who are pro-Palestine can get to a point where they're opposed to the entire concept of Israel as a self-governing country, rather than opposed to the actions of the current regime. And if you are arguing that the Israelis are, of all the people in the world, uniquely not permitted the right to self-governance, than that is in itself anti-semitic. 

Ultimately, there are multiple bullet points between "anti-semitic" and "critical of Israel", and it's singularly unhelpful to pretend otherwise.

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Fucking hell Soubry didn't hold anything back. She's done with the Tory Party good and proper and is almost certainly positioning herself as the leader figure.

Don't see what all the fuss about Allen is about. She was cringy as fuck in her statement imo.

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1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

And if you are arguing that the Israelis are, of all the people in the world´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐´╗┐, uniquely not permitted the right to self-governance, than ´╗┐that is in itself anti-semitic.┬á´╗┐

Is it? That seems a bit of a leap to me.

Edited by Chest Rockwell

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2 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Is it? That seems a bit of a leap to me.

I would say so. To single out one group as not being entitled to something you fight for as a fundamental right for another group is wrong.

You can criticise the actions of the current Israeli regime, but to say that Israelis inherently are not entitled to self-governance, and uniquely so, is anti-semitic. 

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1 minute ago, BomberPat said:

I would say so. To single out one group as not being entitled to something you fight for as a fundamental right for another group is wrong.

You can criticise the actions of the current Israeli regime, but to say that Israelis inherently are not entitled to self-governance, and uniquely so, is anti-semitic. 

I have to say that I've honestly never seen or heard anyone make this claim outside the usual example of extremists.

As to the existence of the state of Israel, I personally am not opposed to it, and the fact that I am pro-Palestinian doesn't necessarily mean I am. The problem isn't Israel's existence, it's the fact that they forcibly ejected people off their own land in order to build it, herded them into what are effectively reservations in Gaza and the West Bank, and even then continue to build or enable to build settlements for religious zealots in complete violation of both international law and treaties that they themselves agreed to. Additionally, they later glorified the Stern Gang and Irgun, two paramilitary organisations, who terrorised the local population, including Mizrahi Jews who'd lived there for millennia, in the lead-up to Israel's founding (actually, the treatment of Mizrahi Jews and Beta Israel Ethiopian & Sudanese Jews in Israel since its founding is also a very good reason to be highly critical of the Ashkhenazi-dominated government and other institutions).

Perhaps it's because of my own background and the political traditions I've grown up with, with a non-white, former colonial for a father, but for me the Israel/Palestine problem is nothing to do with Jews vs. Gentiles, and everything to do with yet another gang of white people stomping into yet another place in the world and not only forcibly taking land from brown/black people living there already, but demonising them to justify the annexation into the bargain. I wouldn't have had any problem with Jews migrating to the area and living peacefully alongside the local populations.

The most aggravating thing about this situation is that Jews and Muslims for the most part actually got on quite well throughout history until the foundation of Israel. Jews and Muslims in the broad sense didn't hate each other. This is basically a bunch of Christian Western former imperialists feeling guilty because they let such an atrocity happen on their watch, and are trying to expiate their guilt by foisting their historically problematic relationship with Jews on to people who had nothing to do with that. And as I'm in particularly cynical mode, I'll say it's also because the US and its allies realise that, in Israel, they have, as I said before, a useful European outpost amongst all those difficult brown people.

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