Paid Members Sergio Mendacious Posted February 19, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) It's hard for me to follow the anti-semitic stuff, but in my understanding, it stems partially from some fucked up stuff individual Labour representatives at various levels have said, but also partially from that wonderful RW "anti-Israeli sentiment is anti-semitism" deal, also very popular in the USA. EDIT — also, on a deeper and more intellectual level, what Keith said. Edited February 19, 2019 by Sergio Mendacious Houchen is Good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted February 19, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted February 19, 2019 19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Essentially, Labour is seen as the party of the left (Despite not being so since clause 4 was removed), Anti capitalists hold resentment towards the financial and industrial giants of the world. Â In a lot of cases, these people are Jewish, so the secretive cabal who are keeping us down have a Zionist agenda. Â It sounds like a right wing conspiracy theory but sadly there are some on the left who think Jews have all the power and look after their own. That mural that Corbyn defended was a good example of this. Â He saw it as a representation of the super capitalists pulling the strings, but the figures in the mural had hook noses and similar nudge nudge wink wink its Jews characteristics. Â I wouldn't be surprised if things I have said or phrases that I use can have anti semitic tones, I guess because I'm not on the receiving end of these aggressions, much like I can never know what it's like to be black, I don't see them. Â If and when they're pointed out to me (like the time I tweeted how I wouldn't mind if we all spoke German if it stopped the worshipping of Churchill) I listen and learn. Â The issue with Labour has been how long it takes them to deal with it. Great breakdown, thank you for the deep dive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 No worries, I'm actually half-Jewish. Â I have a two skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chunk Posted February 19, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted February 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Keith Houchen said: Essentially, Labour is seen as the party of the left (Despite not being so since clause 4 was removed), Anti capitalists hold resentment towards the financial and industrial giants of the world.  In a lot of cases, these people are Jewish, so the secretive cabal who are keeping us down have a Zionist agenda.  It sounds like a right wing conspiracy theory but sadly there are some on the left who think Jews have all the power and look after their own. That mural that Corbyn defended was a good example of this.  He saw it as a representation of the super capitalists pulling the strings, but the figures in the mural had hook noses and similar nudge nudge wink wink its Jews characteristics.  I wouldn't be surprised if things I have said or phrases that I use can have anti semitic tones, I guess because I'm not on the receiving end of these aggressions, much like I can never know what it's like to be black, I don't see them.  If and when they're pointed out to me (like the time I tweeted how I wouldn't mind if we all spoke German if it stopped the worshipping of Churchill) I listen and learn.  The issue with Labour has been how long it takes them to deal with it.  2 hours ago, Sergio Mendacious said: It's hard for me to follow the anti-semitic stuff, but in my understanding, it stems partially from some fucked up stuff individual Labour representatives at various levels have said, but also partially from that wonderful RW "anti-Israeli sentiment is anti-semitism" deal, also very popular in the USA. EDIT — also, on a deeper and more intellectual level, what Keith said. Thanks for that Keith. It's examples like the defending of the mural that I guess I'm specifically asking about. So we have that as an example and as Sergio says, we could add incidents of individual isolated cases of people in the Labour party doing / saying things that could be deemed anti-semetic ... albeit without specific examples talked about here. Does that add up to an anti-semitism issue in the Labour party? Am I being played here by the Labour party brushing an issue under the carpet as a media smear campaign? Am I being played by the media trying to smear Corbyn and the Labour party? Something doesn't add up and for all I can learn about it, it seems like there just isn't enough to point at a party-wide anti-semitism issue and an anti-semetic party leader.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted February 19, 2019 Moderators Share Posted February 19, 2019 Joan Ryan has just resigned from Labour. Â No, me neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 11 minutes ago, Chunk said: Does that add up to an anti-semitism issue in the Labour party? I'd say it's an anti-semitism issue with members of the Labour Party as opposed to the actual party.  A lot of the issue came about from the adapting the IHRA definition of anti-semitism, seen here https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism.  Labour included a caveat saying this shouldn't stifle free speech around the Palestinian issue, something you'd think the ring wing libertarians would be right behind.  This was condemned because it was seen as a get out of jail card for racists. Where I thought Corbyn was strong in this was he didn't resort to whataboutery and kept to putting his own house in order.  I think at the time, the tories hadn't adopted the IHRA definition so quickly rushed it through, and totally shut down Baroness Warsi's investigation into Islamophobia within the tories.  Of course, the media spotlight was disproportionally on Corbyn and Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Sergio Mendacious Posted February 20, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted February 20, 2019 4 hours ago, PowerButchi said: Joan Ryan has just resigned from Labour.  No, me neither. You know, Joanad. The cloud botherer? the Jolly Green Jizzface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) And I'd say the far left (to which Corbyn and his cronies belong) has had a long-standing issue with anti-semitism going back decades. It's the one thing that unites the lunatic fringes of the Left the Right. If the leader of the Labour party is a pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist (which is to say he implicitly supports the destruction of Israel), can the problem be justified with the "a few bad apples" defense? Even Corbyn himself says it can't when he was forced to apologise last year, but let's consider his own track record: He has frequently defended and endorsed people with vile anti-Jewish views, such as Holocaust denier Reverend Stephen Sizer: http://hurryupharry.org/2016/05/02/jeremy-corbyn-defended-stephen-sizer-linking-to-antisemitic-websites-as-a-technical-oversight/ Then there was Jackie Walker, who was suspended for claiming that Jews were the "chief financers of the slave trade", and who Corbyn was more than happy to pose with: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/78700/excl-jeremy-corbyn-criticised-after-appearing-anti There are numerous other examples, detailed in this Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/27/jews-furious-corbyn-evasions-labour-antisemitism But everything's OK now?     Edited February 20, 2019 by Brewster McCloud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 There's a lot of factors in play, here. I'm not going to defend every instance he posed with some tosser, because it's a pretty bad faith argument to begin with and I can't be arsed. First, he has been a lifelong campaigner against racism, and has signed around 10 early day motions in parliament that specifically condemn antisemitism (which I helpfully can't find the infographic for, sorry). Even if you throw that out, it takes a peculiar kind of logic to think that a dedicated pacifist, who has consistently held anti-discriminitary views and positions for his whole life, would also be anti-semitic. Of course it's possible... But it doesn't add up. I think it was last year he celebrated the passover with some Jewish friends and brought a marrow grown on his allotment. #DangerousHero. What does add up is that certain sections of the press (i.e. The entire MSM) don't like his views on Palestine. And that's where the whole thing unravels, because you then start getting left wing Jews who agree with and him and support him, and you have Dan Hodges on twitter calling Michael Rosen a "useful Jewish idiot", or Tom Bower on the TV yesterday calling Michael Segalov a "self-hating Jew". The insinuation being that these people are doing their Jewishness wrongly because they're pro-Corbyn, which I think itself counts as anti-semitism...but the same people forever bashing Corbyn over AS are strangely silent about it so there we are. I must stress that it doesn't mean AS doesn't exist in the labour party. It does, just as it exists in all parts of society. Is Labour doing "enough"? I don't know. I know they have procedures in place to deal with reported cases. I also know that statistically, the Labour membership has been shown to be less anti-semitic than society generally, but I can't speak for them, nor would I presume to speak for any Jew that had suffered AS abuse from a Labour member, or tell them its not a problem or not important. The whole thing raises some interesting questions, like why isn't the Tory party constantly raked over the coals over its Islamaphobia problem in the same way Labour is regarding AS? Why is the Tory party happy to cuddle up to massive anti semite Viktor Orban when it suits them but nobody outside the left wing twitter bubble gives a shit? This isn't whataboutery, these are legitimate questions about double standards in the media that have no reasonable answers, other than AS being the main stick the MSM use to bash Corbyn because they don't like him and are scared of a bit of socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted February 20, 2019 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Brewster McCloud said: He has frequently defended and endorsed people with vile anti-Jewish views, such as Holocaust denier Reverend Stephen Sizer: http://hurryupharry.org/2016/05/02/jeremy-corbyn-defended-stephen-sizer-linking-to-antisemitic-websites-as-a-technical-oversight/ Â Â Â Action needs to be taken about anti-semitism within some of Labour ranks nor would I tell a Jewish person how they should feel about all this, but I'm not going to take the Islamophobic bog Harry's Place too seriously as a source for anything. Edited February 20, 2019 by PowerButchi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheffbag Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 (edited) Another factor is Labours refusal to accept the full IRHA definition of Anti Semitism as generally recognised by most people for a long time. then when they finally adopted it they added a clause saying that "this will not in any way undermine freedom of expression on Israel or the rights of Palestinians". This additional clause is not included in anyone else acceptance and is viewed as a caveat enabling the Labour party members to say what they like about Isreal and Jews in general and hide behind "freedom of expression".  It doesnt help his cause when Corbyn wrote to the Bishop of Guildford defending Stephen Sizer and calling him an "Active and well informed individual" Stephen Sizer was the guy who wrote the article " 9/11 - Israel did it"  Edited February 20, 2019 by Sheffbag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted February 20, 2019 Author Paid Members Share Posted February 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Sheffbag said: Stephen Sizer was the guy who wrote the article " 9/11 - Israel did it" No he wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Joan Ryan resigns....nothing to do with her being deselected in September I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted February 20, 2019 Moderators Share Posted February 20, 2019 And here come the tories! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 20, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted February 20, 2019 Is it OK to fancy Heidi Allen now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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