Star Wars Thread - Spoilers, yo.

[Hannibal Scorch]

It's been a long realization for me to get to this point, but really there is a trilogy for each generation.I was 4 or 5 when I first watched A New Hope and I was amazed when my Dad told me there were 2 more films to come out on video soon. I adored those movies. At 16 I saw The Phantom Menace and walked out knowing it was a bit of a stinker, but there are people I speak to in their 20's who loved that trilogy alot. And that's the thing. These really are kid's films with a cross generation appeal, and if you can accept that, you can put aside a lot, not all mind, of the critcism.

I walked out of TLJ angry because it wasn't how I expected it to be. After re-watching a few days later, with none of my expectations, I preferred it more to TFA. Now I cannot wait for The Rise of Skywalker. I have avoided the latest trailer, I have avoided the spoiler discussions going around, and I just want to go in, see what they decided to do with it, and just enjoy it. I cannot wait to revisit all these films with my daughter.

[Factotum]

Quote

Rogue One was fantastic, and the best Star Wars movie since Empire, and Solo was absolute dog-shit.

Never has someone been more incorrect in a sentence

[Merzbow]

Rogue One fucked me off so badly, partly my own fault for expecting it to be a well written more adult focused sci-fi. I get on with Star Wars, it's fine silliness and I can even watch Episode 1 without throwing up but idiot me didn't realise RO was going to be plain dullness with some fan service thrown in.

[BomberPat]

Admittedly, I've not watched Rogue One since it came out in the cinema, but it felt fresh in all the ways Force Awakens didn't, and felt like it actually functioned as a prequel in all the ways the prequel series didn't. It supplemented A New Hope, it didn't over-complicate or take away from it. It filled in plot holes, rather than creating new ones. And, cameos and CGI Tarkin aside, it effectively established that you can tell a Star Wars story, firmly set in the Star Wars Universe, without relying on the same old characters.

Compare that to Solo, and you have a character who at the start of A New Hope is a heartless, self-centred smuggler, and whose narrative arc over that film and the next is to realise a purpose greater than himself - to have him effectively already have undergone that arc in a movie set, presumably, only a couple of years (at most) earlier completely undermines the point of the character, and the journey the audience go on with him in the original trilogy. In terms of storytelling, that's arguably more egregious than any of Episodes 1-3's plot holes. 

And, again, "How did Han Solo get his name?" is not a question anyone was asking. You also see it established that Han can speak Wookiee, something he never does again for the rest of the franchise. It's a film that added nothing, and detracted a lot. 

Prequels are largely pointless endeavours almost all the time, but when a prequel undermines or takes away from the original story - as every Star Wars prequel bar Rogue One has done in some sense - it's even worse.

[Factotum]

Quote

Compare that to Solo, and you have a character who at the start of A New Hope is a heartless, self-centred smuggler, and whose narrative arc over that film and the next is to realise a purpose greater than himself - to have him effectively already have undergone that arc in a movie set, presumably, only a couple of years (at most) earlier completely undermines the point of the character, and the journey the audience go on with him in the original trilogy. In terms of storytelling, that's arguably more egregious than any of Episodes 1-3's plot holes. 

That's if you place it in the context of Star Wars. As a film its an enjoyable romp and miles better than Rogue One, which essentially one big REMEMBER THIS FROM THOSE SUPERIOR FILMS!!! Wankfest

Also I disagree. His arc in this is essentially that everyone lets him down and he hardens. Hence why he becomes who he is at the start of episode 4. You have to remember it was planned to be a trilogy (I know that's no excuse) so I assume we would have seen that develop more. If anything in this, he goes through the reverse. However, I stick by as a one off film its an enjoyable film that doesn't get bogged down on the mythos of Star Wars (bar the clearly added scene of a previous villain at the end)

[HarmonicGenerator]

I love Rogue One. I don't mind Solo. I've rewatched RO on Blu Ray once every few months and enjoy it just as much every time. I've watched Solo on Blu Ray once. I'm not as hard on Solo as Pat is, but I'm totally with him on Rogue One - I came out of the cinema for that buzzing as much as Force Awakens. Krennic had me as soon as I saw his cape, thought Giacchino's music fit really well, still rasp "LIES! DECEPTIONS!" whenever something goes wrong, bloody love Chirrut Imwe, thought K-2 hit the 'sarcastic droid' spots much better than L3 in Solo (though I still don't mind her), really enjoyed the way it filled in plot holes and the fact it doesn't take away from any enjoyment of ANH (it even adds to it a little bit), thought the final sequence on Scarif was fantastic, and after NOOOOOOO and all that guff thought Vader's rampage through the corridor was possibly the scariest he's ever been. Whereas with Solo, I applauded the casting of Donald Glover, was impressed with the puppetry of Lady Proxima, really liked Paul Bettany and thought Enfys Nest was brilliant, but my list of likes is much much shorter. Rogue One > Solo.

[BomberPat]

There's as much fan wank in Solo as any of the others, though. The aforementioned villain, Lando, the visual nod to the Rancorr pit, Chewbacca ripping off arms, practically everything with Lando ("I hate you"/"I know" in particular), and so on. 

Rogue One largely follows original characters with no bearing on the trilogy (which also means heightened engagement, as at no point am I thinking, "well, these guys are going to survive because they're in the next film"), and fleshes out aspects of the original movies that benefited from being fleshed out - establishing that the Death Star's obvious gaping flaw was there through active sabotage is a plot point that makes what follows more reasonable, whereas earlier prequels only serve to muddle and confuse by drawing connections between characters or plot points that were never necessary. The fan wank is there, for sure, but it's not the majority of the movie, and is often the weakest points.

I also love how Rogue One shows the Rebel Alliance as actually being made up of a variety of splinter groups, with varying approaches to tackling the Empire, and with even the unified "Alliance" still arguing on what the best course of action would be - it makes them feel more believable, and with more of a sense of urgency and humanity, than the whiter than white, stereotypical good guys of the original trilogy.

1 minute ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

thought Vader's rampage through the corridor was possibly the scariest he's ever been. 

100% agreed with this - though I think it should have been the only time we saw Vader in this film. Seeing him in his melodramatic supervillain volcano base, and quipping like an '80s cartoon villain, wasn't necessary. His lightsaber activating in darkness, and then just wrecking everyone is a perfect introduction, and complements the opening of A New Hope perfectly.

Edited October 24, 2019 by BomberPat

[HarmonicGenerator]

Just now, BomberPat said:

Darth Vader quipping

I don't know why people had such a major problem with this. I went to the Empire Strikes Back in concert the other week and he does just as quippy a quip in that. Does "apology accepted" get a pass because it was in the OT? The occasional Vader quip is a much more fun way of showing there's a still a bit of humanity in there than him having a wail over Padme.

[Hannibal Scorch]

4 minutes ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

I love Rogue One. I don't mind Solo. I've rewatched RO on Blu Ray once every few months and enjoy it just as much every time. I've watched Solo on Blu Ray once. I'm not as hard on Solo as Pat is, but I'm totally with him on Rogue One - I came out of the cinema for that buzzing as much as Force Awakens. Krennic had me as soon as I saw his cape, thought Giacchino's music fit really well, still rasp "LIES! DECEPTIONS!" whenever something goes wrong, bloody love Chirrut Imwe, thought K-2 hit the 'sarcastic droid' spots much better than L3 in Solo (though I still don't mind her), really enjoyed the way it filled in plot holes and the fact it doesn't take away from any enjoyment of ANH (it even adds to it a little bit), thought the final sequence on Scarif was fantastic, and after NOOOOOOO and all that guff thought Vader's rampage through the corridor was possibly the scariest he's ever been. Whereas with Solo, I applauded the casting of Donald Glover, was impressed with the puppetry of Lady Proxima, really liked Paul Bettany and thought Enfys Nest was brilliant, but my list of likes is much much shorter. Rogue One > Solo.

if you ever get the chance, the Star Wars Void VR Experience is fantastic and is set during Rogue One. Got Alan Tudyak and Diego Luna back for it as well. It was in London but currently not here in the UK, but expect it to pop up sometime

[BomberPat]

1 minute ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

I don't know why people had such a major problem with this. I went to the Empire Strikes Back in concert the other week and he does just as quippy a quip in that. Does "apology accepted" get a pass because it was in the OT? The occasional Vader quip is a much more fun way of showing there's a still a bit of humanity in there than him having a wail over Padme.

It's a hard one to justify - I love Vader arbitrarily promoting people in Empire after he's force-choked someone, but I think he stops short of making naff puns. I think it's the combination of the quip and the hitherto unseen volcano lair that make it a bit too much for me. That said, I do love the shot of Vader in his life-support tank thing out of his armour, but feel it would be a better fit in another film, where it wouldn't have undermined how much better that shot of him in darkness would have been as his first appearance.

Also, as much as I think the evil volcano lair is a bad fit for the Vader character as of the Original Trilogy, him being a mopey angsty prick for the entire prequel trilogy makes me think that a melodramatic Mighty Max evil base on the planet he got burned on is exactly the sort of goth bullshit that version of the character would do.

[Carbomb]

22 hours ago, BomberPat said:

Yep. And for all they try to argue that they're not kids' films, how many of them fell in love with the franchise as an adult? 

 

And "it's for kids" isn't a criticism of its quality. It's just an acknowledgement of the target audience. But insecure people don't like to be told that they're not the target audience for anything, and certainly don't want to be told "it's for children".

I agree, but I think their reaction isn't 100% unreasonable for as long as people use "it's for kids" as a pejorative. If it didn't have that connotation, I think more people might not feel like their tastes are being attacked and invalidated.

But I've said it before: fandom is the dirt worst. It's one thing to be passionate about something, but it's another to claim ownership of it.

[Ronnie]

9 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yep. And for all they try to argue that they're not kids' films, how many of them fell in love with the franchise as an adult? 

Exactly. How many people north of 70 do you see who are passionate about the original trilogy? None, because they were over 30 when those kids' films were released.

I can look back objectively at the G1 Transformers cartoon and acknowledge that it's shit. I still loved it at the time and would, I think, enjoy them if I watched them again at 40, irrespective of the animation faults, prominent storyline inconsistencies and ropey stories. I get the feeling that the worst in the Star Wars community can't do that when they proclaim every other kids' film which came out after they'd grown up to be awful in comparison to the ones they enjoyed as children. I don't let nostalgia cloud my enjoyment and actually prefer the prequels to the originals, and have really enjoyed the recent offerings.

[Carbomb]

18 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Exactly. How many people north of 70 do you see who are passionate about the original trilogy? None, because they were over 30 when those kids' films were released.

I can look back objectively at the G1 Transformers cartoon and acknowledge that it's shit. I still loved it at the time and would, I think, enjoy them if I watched them again at 40, irrespective of the animation faults, prominent storyline inconsistencies and ropey stories. I get the feeling that the worst in the Star Wars community can't do that when they proclaim every other kids' film which came out after they'd grown up to be awful in comparison to the ones they enjoyed as children. I don't let nostalgia cloud my enjoyment and actually prefer the prequels to the originals, and have really enjoyed the recent offerings.

Despite your quoting me as if I were Pat, I absolutely agree. 

So far, I've actually loved pretty much all the SW offerings except The Phantom Menace and Solo (which I haven't seen). I personally really liked TLJ, didn't get the problems reasonable people had with it, and didn't care what problems the fedora-wearers had with it. I also appreciate that, when I watch the originals, I'm purposely giving them a lot more leeway as regards criticism because of what they meant to me as a kid than I would have done as an adult watching them for the first time. I'm sure there'll be people doing the same with the Harry Potter movies in about ten years' time too.

[The King Of Swing]

The only parts I actually hated in TLJ was the Casino planet parts.

[HarmonicGenerator]

7 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

If you want to do one a weekend of the Skywalker Saga before the new one hits start now.

As I'm doing a 7-9 triple bill I'm going to slide in Solo and Rogue One between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope.

Getting The Phantom Menace and its Windows XP hills out of the way now.

Don't tempt me!