Random Thoughts III.

[simonworden]

I didn't mind the one by soundtrack of our lives. Shit as just a song but decent theme for a wrestling show I thought. Gabriel's was much better.

 

Love the idea of Vince finding v the wrong song has been selected while it's playing as the ppv goes live.

Another thought. I used to love those wrap up videos using one or more extra songs they obviously worked tirelessly on to finish up so they could play at the end of the show..did they do that or just attach to replays. Wm21 using 3 doors downs behind those eyes is my favourite.

[Kaz Hayashi]

7 hours ago, DREADNORT said:

 

He must've found them

[BomberPat]

On ‎30‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 10:14 AM, FelatioLips said:

2001 Invasion Era is a frustrating watch. It was around the time I got into it as a kid so I expected full nostalgia, but watching back it's frustrating to see how all over the place it is and how fast the WWF/Alliance gets blurred into one big mess. It actually reminds me a lot of what we have now where the talent pool is so deep, but they focus on one or two people and then everyone else just fucks about doing nothing. Only people are over back in 2001. 

Likewise, I got back into wrestling around mid-2000, and was all in by the 2001 Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania 17, so have fond memories of the Invasion; I'd only recently started watching ECW, so seeing Rob Van Dam show up in the WWF was amazing, and having not watched for most of the Attitude era, I wasn't even too fussed by Austin working heel, or by the lack of "name" stars for WCW, or by WWF vs. WCW being turned into just more McMahon drama, as the idea was enough for me, and the first Invasion PPV was great. Stuff like Mike Awesome winning the Hardcore Title in the "hallowed halls of Madison Square Garden", The Undertaker rallying the troops, Freddie Blassie rising from his wheelchair, all of that made it seem like the most important storyline ever.

But, by the end of it, at Survivor Series when you have such interpromotional dream matches as Edge vs. Test and Christian vs. Al Snow, and a WCW/ECW team containing Kurt Angle, Steve Austin and Shane McMahon? Yeah, sod off.

Looking back...the Invasion PPV was in July, the story was wrapped up at Survivor Series in November. Whole thing done and dusted in four months. At the time it felt like it lasted years.

[ColinBollocks]

Aye, four months doesn't even seem right.

I spent that time believing the news sites, so was gladly waiting for Goldberg and Sting to come in to make life a little better. Proper miffed when they blew it off, at the time, but obviously now I understand. They were out of steam and it was such a rubbish mess come November, with no sign of Goldberg or Kronik.

[BomberPat]

20 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

Aye, four months doesn't even seem right.

I spent that time believing the news sites, so was gladly waiting for Goldberg and Sting to come in to make life a little better. Proper miffed when they blew it off, at the time, but obviously now I understand. They were out of steam and it was such a rubbish mess come November, with no sign of Goldberg or Kronik.

There was a bit of a slow burn before Invasion, with guys like Mike Awesome and Lance Storm doing run-ins, and Shane McMahon trying to recruit people, so the full story went a little longer - even then only really from May or June, or from Shane having "bought" WCW in March, but from the first "WCW vs. WWF" pay-per-view to the last only being four months has thrown me right off! Felt like it lasted forever.

I don't think I was really following news sites at the time, and having only just got back into wrestling, didn't know much about what WCW's roster looked like at the time, and only really knew it from magazines and the video games, or the few episodes of Nitro I'd watched. So I'm not sure if I even recognised that we didn't get many of the top stars - but I was with it enough to at least recognise what a rough deal of it DDP got!

That, by the end of it all, they weren't even using the name "WCW", just "The Alliance", and half the Alliance team were WWF mainstays, even I could tell it was an utter shambles, though. I know there was so much going on contractually and politically that got in the way, but surely no one ever fucked up a "can't fail" prospect like WWF vs. WCW anything like that badly before or since?

[ColinBollocks]

Vince had an absolute shocker in 2001. The Invasion fizzling out and the XFL. It was the year his magic touch seemed to almost evaporate. WWF/E was still big, like, but things were slowly fading out after the boom.

Edited October 2, 2017 by ColinBollocks

[mim731]

5 hours ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

He must've found them

Is Kane coming out of a toilet/outhouse in that picture? 

[Ladiesman345]

He struck a match to get rid of the smell.

[Cat crater]

On 01/10/2017 at 10:17 AM, Kaz Hayashi said:

The one in the backs Kane? Did he forget his red and black vest and put vampiros top on?

Must've left his mask at home too.

Should've gone to Specsavers mate.

[Briefcase]

I know the WWE probably did it on purpose (that and not many top stars coming to WWE at the time) but I did think those who came over looked small time, I remember a friend of mine back then saying Booker T was a cheap version of The Rock. I was never into WCW so although the invasion felt big my impressions of WCW back then was that it was a level below the WWE. 

Bet WWE regret now getting Goldberg or Sting in back then though, would have made such a massive difference. 

 

[simonworden]

From memory at the time everyone just felt generic even at the start. It was the blander newer section of the roster at the start. The thrillers, Kidman, Demott, Awesome, Helms.. they all had very little character apart from being a wcw wrestler nick Patrick had more character. Granted with some WWF fixed it but in the colorful world of WWF they looked very dull to 15 year old me

[BomberPat]

14 hours ago, Briefcase said:

I know the WWE probably did it on purpose (that and not many top stars coming to WWE at the time) but I did think those who came over looked small time, I remember a friend of mine back then saying Booker T was a cheap version of The Rock. I was never into WCW so although the invasion felt big my impressions of WCW back then was that it was a level below the WWE. 

Bet WWE regret now getting Goldberg or Sting in back then though, would have made such a massive difference. 

 

They purposefully told the audience that Booker T was a Rock rip-off! Aside from him using the Book End as his finish, their gimmicks and styles had nothing in common, but that's the angle they went with.

They shouldn't have needed Goldberg and Sting, they should have been able to coast enough on the appeal of WWF vs. WCW, and capitalised on the stars they had - Booker T and DDP, at the very least - but they just buried everybody from day one. I was never particularly a fan of The Rock, but the Invasion is when I completely soured on him, and it's down to two promos. First was him doing his, "Who in the blue hell are you?" line on Booker T - potentially the biggest star WCW had at the time, and we're going to treat him like he's a nobody, and the second was him saying the WCW Title was worthless, because it had been held by David Arquette etc. - only for him to then go on and win that title. Well, you just told us the champion was rubbish, and that the belt doesn't mean anything, why am I supposed to care?

When they didn't have the "top" stars, they should have been making the best possible use of what they had - not being a WCW fan at the time, even I knew DDP was a big deal, and nicknamed "The People's Champion", and a feud with The Rock seemed like common sense, but instead he got endlessly squashed by The Undertaker, while The Rock made Booker T look like a chump.

I'm sure there a thousand reasons it didn't work - egos, politics, different working styles, Vince and the creative team not "getting" what worked in WCW, but even without the Goldbergs, Stings and Ric Flairs of the world, it was ridiculous. That Ric Flair got brought in the night after the last "Alliance vs. WWF" show, and Eric Bischoff shortly after that, just sort of compounds how silly it all was.

[Your Fight Site]

Didn’t the WWF briefly try running WCW as its own entity (running one or two WCW-branded house shows) which bombed, so the WWF went, “Yeah, WCW sucks” and rushed to the finish line so to speak with the angle?

[BomberPat]

10 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

Didn’t the WWF briefly try running WCW as its own entity (running one or two WCW-branded house shows) which bombed, so the WWF went, “Yeah, WCW sucks” and rushed to the finish line so to speak with the angle?

I don't think they ran house shows (not that I recall reading about anywhere, anyway), but they had planned on running them separately, but couldn't get anyone to give them a TV deal for WCW - I suppose it was seen as damaged goods at the time. They had planned on doing the brand split earlier than it happened in reality, with the WWF taking one show and WCW the other, but that was shelved too.

The closest to a WCW-branded show the WWF ever produced was the last 20 minutes of RAW, featuring the Bagwell/Booker T match that pretty much sunk the whole angle. The crowd shit on it, and WCW went from being broadly a babyface stable aligned with Shane McMahon and going after Vince and heel WWF guys to being an evil invading force. That match, and that night, probably killed any chance the Invasion story had of going well.

[JNLister]

Hey, is it time to drag this old post out again?

 

Why is wrestling cyclical, but real sports, film, books and popular music aren't. There is nothing inherently cyclical about wrestling other than the fact that promoters consistently let good spells blind them to the need to prepare for the future. They then use 'it's just a downcycle' as a carny excuse for fucking it up.

 

Logically, why should a sports-related business in which YOU CONTROL THE OUTCOMES be cyclical?

 

Let's take the WWF in 2001. They've got 400 million bucks in the bank, they've just bought the competition including its trademarks, 24 fresh workers and the video library. And they are putting on the biggest show in the history of the wrestling business, drawing $40 million in a night with one of the best cards in PPV history, containing something for everyone in all styles.

 

Sounds like an enviable position huh?

 

You, Vince McMahon announce the purchase of your competition and put it in the on-screen hands of your son, an overexposed WWF character. You then don't even mention the company for a couple of months. Two million loyal WCW fans turn off and drop out of wrestling never to return.

 

You turn your top star heel (which has potential) but put him with his long-time rival (er, yourself) without explanation. You have done this turn at the same time your other top babyface is disappearing for the summer to make movies. The logical plan B, of turning your top heel (who is already being cheered, and holds a win over the new champion) goes out the window because he doesn't want to do it.

 

So you then look elsewhere. The Hardy Boys are getting over, they have a logical feud with Austin through Lita, and they are fresh faces. So HHH jobs to Jeff Hardy and then destroys him a few days later, making your title a joke and proving the Hardys aren't at that level. Instead, you push Undertaker and Kane to the top because they are big and they are 'proven stars'.

When that bores the fans away, you start a great push of Benoit and Jericho. Then you change your mind and start dropping their push BEFORE the PPV they are headlining.

 

While this is going on, you take your top heel, and your secondary heel (who is an Olympic gold medallist wrestler with a deadly submission finisher) and run repeated skits where they amuse you by playing the banjo, singing badly and wearing cowboy hats. Your lead heel’s wife bakes cookies and – get this – they suck but you all pretend to like them.

 

You finally get round to doing something with WCW. You have a two hour TV slot booked on Saturday nights. So you use that for a recap show. You look at the big names from WCW that aren’t under contract and decide to say no, later arguing they were too expensive. (You have 400 million dollars in the bank.) So you sign Dallas Page as a mystery stalker who confronts Undertaker in an unsanctioned fight (not even a match with a person jobbing) at a PPV. Page is soundly beaten, runs away, and is later pinned by Undertaker’s wife.

 

After several back and forth hit and run incidents (including the WCW tag champions being run out of MSG and legitimately beaten up because they didn’t introduce themselves to HHH), you launch WCW proper as a segment on RAW. A segment with Booker T in a live match against… Buff Bagwell. You then have both men run out of the building.

 

After this strategy goes haywire, you switch to another plan. Instead of some murky tweener collection, you take all the WCW guys, add everyone with an ECW background, and bring in Dreamer and Van Dam. A couple of swerves (on one night) later and you have a logical storyline with an invasion recreating the WWF vs WCW/ECW wars. The heels are led by Paul Heyman, and you spend some money to bring in Eric Bischoff to add credibility.

 

Shit, no.

 

You actually take all these people and make your daughter their leader and mouthpiece, immediately undermining the whole concept.

 

Despite this, your next PPV (headlined on the heel side by Page, Booker, Rhyno and the Dudleys) is the biggest-selling non-Mania show ever with 790,000 buys. And how do you end it? Your lead heel, who is default a babyface, jumps. So the invasion alliance is now headed by one of your own stars who hated WCW with a passion.

 

You then leave your video library gathering dust and never give any background on any of the WCW characters or let them cut meaningful promos. You dress them all in identical t-shirts and give them no characterisation. Except Shawn Stasiak who runs into things.

 

Come the next PPV, you drop to 570,000 buys. Page and his partner are destroyed in a one-sided beating. Booker T headlines with his WCW title (though before the show you do a week-long doubleswitch with Angle and toss away the selling point of the first WWF wrestler to hold the belt) and takes on the Rock. The man who can lose to anyone without losing status. So you have Rock make Booker look stupid on promos and then pin him clean as a whistle on their first meeting. The show as a whole sees WWF beat the Alliance six matches to two.

 

A month later, your PPV sells just 385,000.

 

This time you have Booker team up with your son in a handicap match. They still lose to Rock. Kronik wrestle on the undercard. You now have eight singles titles and ten tag titles floating about. The gimmick of one side holding the other’s title has been beaten into the ground.

 

A month later your PPV sells just 300,000.

 

Van Dam has been getting over big style despite being on the heel side. You put him in the main event, but water it down to a three-way and hold back on his push because he can’t actually work and he hurts people and the fans don’t know what’s good for them. You and your son are the focus of the finish.

 

Jericho’s also been getting over. He’s getting a big push as the guy who’s never won the big one. Rock is going to drop the WCW title to him (yes, when Rock finally loses, it’s to somebody on the same side of the invasion). So you get the event over by having a great match end with your daughter (who is on the other side of the invasion) do a run-in.

 

Booker jobs to Undertaker.

 

A month later you call it quits and run a match where WWF and WCW are both at stake. Literally the biggest stakes in the history of the business. Instead of the July PPV’s ‘nobodies’ of Rhyno and the Dudleys, the main event heel side includes WWF star Steve Austin, WWF star Kurt Angle (in a bizarre turn), and your son. The show does 450,000 buys (down from 790,000 in July). It barely beats out the show headlined by Benoit and Jericho against Austin in a feud aborted before the PPV.

 

Since WrestleMania, you’ve seen falling PPVs including a three month period of 750,000 to 570,000 to 385,000 to 300,000. House show attendance, which had been steady for about three years, has dropped from 11,000 to 6,5000 in eight months. Revenue is down significantly across the board.

 

But here’s the funny thing. Over the same period, TV ratings for your prime Monday show are only down about 10%. (Over the next three years they won’t significantly fall – you’re doing 4.3 in November 2001 and come June 2004 you’ll be hovering around the 4s.)

 

So you’ve still got a loyal, non-fad, watch-it-whatever audience that is made up of solid wrestling fans who can’t be run off. Yet for some reason, a large proportion of them have stopped spending money on your product.

 

What caused this. Was it:

 

A)    Your arrogant egotistical misguided booking that ignored what your audience was telling you?

 

B) Mysterious cyclical forces?