The Fortean/paranormal/conspiracy thread

[David]

An interesting one, and something that has caught the attention of conspiracy theorists for obvious reasons;

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Imane Fadil was a Moroccan ex-model who became a celebrity after becoming a key witness in the 2013 “Rubygate” trials which accused the media mogul and ex-Prime Minister of Italy Silvio Berlusconi of “child prostitution”. Fadil was also looking to be a witness in a related investigation (dubbed “Ruby ter”) that is still ongoing.

In 2018, Fadil claimed in an interview that Berlusconi’s infamous “parties” lead to dark, satanic rituals. She was also in the process of writing a tell-all book about Rubygate and the dark secrets of Berlusconi. The name of the projected book was quite evocative: I Met the Devil.

However, in the past weeks, things dramatic turn. Imane Fadil died in a hospital room in Milan on March 1st after a month of agony. Media sources reported her death only 15 days after the fact, mostly because authorities announced the opening of a homicide investigation. Indeed, the cause of Fadil’s death is currently believed to be “murder by radioactive poisoning”.

Here’s a look at the bizarre story.

Rubygate

In 2013, Berlusconi was found guilty of paying for the sexual services of dancer Ruby Rubacuori when she was a minor. He was also charged with abusing his political powers in an attempt to cover up the relationship.

17-year old Moroccan belly dancer and alleged prostitute Karima El Mahroug (better known as “Ruby Rubacuori”) claimed to have been given $10,000 by Berlusconi at parties at his private villas. The girl told prosecutors in Milan that these events were like orgies where Berlusconi and 20 young women performed an African-style ritual known as the “bunga bunga” in the nude.

In 2014, Berlusconi filed an appeal and managed to get the convictions against him overturned. However, the “Ruby ter” investigation is still ongoing which alleges that Berlusconi bribed 18 girls that participated in his parties to “speak positively” about Berlusconi. A month prior to her hospitalization, Fadil had requested to be a witness in this trial.

Fadil’s last interview, given to the Italian newspaper Il Fatto Quotidiano on April 2018, addressed topics that were not discussed in court: Satanic rituals taking place in hidden rooms inside Berlusconi’s mansion. Here’s a rough translation of this infamous interview:

Imane Fadil, a model of Moroccan origin, was just over 25 years old when she was invited for the first time to Arcore, the home of Berlusconi, in 2011. She participated in eight “elegant dinners” and during some of these, according to her, she saw everything: The girls, the stripteases, and the “Bunga Bunga” parties. She then stopped attending and went to the public prosecutor’s office to reveal everything she had seen, complete with names and surnames. The result? Photographers, interviews, headlines, lawsuits. Today, Imane is 33 years old and she is about to finish a book that will reveal everything you need to know about Berlusconi.

Today, after a few years, how do you remember that whole affair?

It was a devastating thing, impossible to describe. At first I was alone against everyone, nobody believed my version.

What did everyone think?

That I was telling those things because I wanted money and success.

And how was it?

I used to go to Arcore because I hoped it would be enough to get into that circle and get a job (in television). Then, I understood what was truly happening and I spoke up.

Were you defamed at that time?

Yes, by all. The first was Emilio Fede. But then I sued him and they condemned him, now there’s the appeal. He also sued me, but his case was dismissed because I said the truth and he didn’t.

Your ugliest memory?

The last night I went there, there were all these naked girls dancing. One of them was laying on the ground and was wearing only a loincloth and she was shaking desperately, staring at me. Her eyes seemed to say: “Don’t judge me, help me!”. A terrifying memory.

Have you ever witnessed explicit scenes?

No, I did not.

And who told you this happened?

Well, the last night a girl came to me and told me: “Look, to get something you have to do something more.” And I understood everything. Until that moment I had hoped I would never be asked for such a thing.

Now you are writing a book. Why?

Because I want to tell everything. This is not limited to a powerful man who had girls. There is much more to this story, much more serious things.

Explain.

It’s not easy to tell, it will be the first time I do it. But the time has come.

Please go ahead.

This gentleman is part of a sect that invokes the devil. Yes, I know I’m saying something strong, but it is true. And many others know this.

They know what?

That continuous obscenities happened in that house. A sort of sect, made up of only women, dozens and dozens of complicit females.

Did you see these rituals?

Let’s say I have many clues. In that room where Bunga Bunga was held there was a small room with clothes, all the same, like tunics, about twenty or thirty. What were they for? And then there was another small underground room with a swimming pool, with another room next to it, totally dark, without any light. An underground pool and a room without lights? Why?

Weak clues. It could be a relaxation area. Is it a fact that you have not seen any actual Satanic rituals or anything like that?

Look, I’ve seen worse. Things that are difficult to explain briefly.

Please try.

I saw strange, sinister presences. I’ve been a psychic since I was a child due to my father being was sanctified. And I tell you that, in that house, there are disturbing presences. There’s evil in there, I’ve seen it, there’s Lucifer.

Do you know that saying such things could be perceived as crazy?

Of course I know, but I don’t care what people will say. I never said anything because I had no evidence. Now I have it.

Do you have proof? Please show it.

No, not yet, I’ll do it later. I just have to finish this book. And then the world will know.

At the time of her death, Fadil was looking for a publisher that was “courageous enough” to print her book entitled I Met the Devil. Immediately after her death, the draft of the book was seized by prosecutors. The Italian newspaper Il Fatto Quotidiano published a small excerpt of the book that was shared by Fadil in 2018. Here’s a rough translation.

She saw the girls in a sort of circle, with Berlusconi at the center as a pivot: A kind of adoration, with some nude, others half-naked, and others disguised, wandering through the underground living room. It was then that Imane found courage and went to Berlusconi to tell him that she wanted to go home. But Silvio told her to wait. In the basement, Imane saw what she called a sort of brothel with naked girls and half-naked in the pool. There were also minors who perhaps did not realize what was happening.

“The virgin maiden arrived”, Imane repeated with horror. They were announcing the very young “selection” for that evening.

Strange circumstances surrounding her death

Fadil died on March 1st after a long period of agony as her vital functions progressively shut down. She experienced her first symptoms on January 29th. She was then hospitalized for nearly a month where she underwent a long series of tests as doctors were looking for the cause of her pain. During this time, Fadil told her brother and lawyer that she feared she had been poisoned.

After her death, it was revealed that she was probably poisoned by a “very strange” cocktail of radioactive elements that caused the progressive deterioration of her internal organs. These elements are not freely available to the general public.

On the day of her death, the Judicial Authority seized Fadil’s body and the entirety of her medical records.

When news broke about Fadil’s death, Berlusconi commented:

“It is always sad when a young person dies. However, I never met her this person.”

Seems it may not just be ol' Vlad who knows how to dish out the poison to remove troublesome characters.

Edited April 3, 2019 by David

[stevieg1980]

 

Just a little addendum to the above article from the Irish Times.

"Results from the first tests on the body of Imane Fadil, a Moroccan model who was a regular guest at Silvio Berlusconi’s “bunga bunga” parties, have excluded radioactive poisoning as a cause of death, doctors announced on Friday.

Last week Italian magistrates opened an investigation into the possible murder of Fadil (33), who testified in 2012 against the former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, who was accused at the time of paying for sex with an underage girl during organised sex parties at his villa.

Fadil died on March 1st, a month after being admitted to a hospital in Milan with severe stomach pains. A few days before, she told friends and her lawyer she had been poisoned.

Magistrates in Milan, who are investigating Mr Berlusconi’s “bunga bunga” parties, ordered an autopsy and for her medical records to be seized.

The postmortem has not yet been carried out, but the first tests on the woman’s internal organs appeared to exclude the presence of radioactive substances, initially given as a possible cause of death, said doctors in Milan.

Fadil had repeatedly told friends and relatives she was scared someone wanted to kill her."

Edited April 4, 2019 by stevieg1980

[BomberPat]

Probably better suited here than to the clog-popping thread; David Farrant, of Highgate Vampire fame, has reportedly passed away. 

One of the bits of Forteana I remember reading about quite vividly as a kid, in amongst all the rains of frogs and spontaneous human combustion.

[Briefcase]

Not really sure where to put this. Yeah it's just someone messing around but I would still probably shit myself if I looked at the window and saw this climbing over my gate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-47975644

Edited April 19, 2019 by Briefcase

[Carbomb]

I knew there was a reason for my previously-irrational dislike of Gwyneth Paltrow. This is a couple of years old, but I only found out about this today:http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/gwyneth-paltrows-goop-endorses-robert-schochs-lost-ice-age-civilization-plus-a-medieval-account-of-the-sphinxs-secret-chamber

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Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop Endorses Robert Schoch's Lost Ice Age Civilization; Plus: A Medieval Account of the Sphinx's Secret Chamber 7/11/2017   Note: This post has been edited to correct information about Edgar Cayce. Gwyneth Paltrow receives frequent criticism because her lifestyle brand, Goop, actively promotes all manner of quackery in the name of “wellness.” But I was shocked and surprised to see that Goop has now extended beyond dubious wellness cures into the realm of pseudoarchaeology. Goop interviewed “maverick” geologist Robert Schoch, who gave Paltrow’s moneyed hausfrau readers a summary of his usual claims about an Ice Age Sphinx and a lost megalithic civilization, with the added speculation that civilization rises and falls because “subtle changes in the [Earth’s] electromagnetic/geomagnetic field can modulate mental abilities in humans.” He added that “academia” is financially invested in maintaining the current paradigm of history, which is why his radical revision hasn’t caught on.   The interview was part of Goop’s celebration of conspiracy theories, which included an investigation into whether the Illuminati still exist, an itinerary for vacationing at conspiracy hot spots, a UFO investigation, and so on. While media observers puzzled over Goop’s strange new direction, regular observers of conspiracy theories likely saw nothing terribly strange about a brand that promotes quackery in one field expanding into noxious nuttiness in another.   None of this is terribly surprising, but near the end of the Schoch interview, the geologist described his work looking for the Hall of Records underneath the Sphinx and how Edgar Cayce “predicted” its existence, right around the time that the Rosicrucians had proposed it. “I have to admit that, at the time, I was a bit embarrassed to be seen as corroborating the sayings of a psychic, but the facts are the facts,” Schoch said. Cayce described, vaguely, an entrance to a hidden hall of records beneath the front paw of the Sphinx in 1932 (5746-6, July 1, 1932), where Schoch later explored a hidden cavity. Such speculation was as old as Pliny, and subterranean libraries were a staple of medieval Arab-Islamic Egyptology. A more elaborate version of the Sphinx claim was published by H. C. Randall-Stevens, another psychic, who claimed in 1935 that it had come from an ancient manuscript. “These unusual drawings were made from secret manuscripts possessed by archivists of the mystery schools of Egypt and the Orient and are part of secret manuscripts telling of the ancient forms of initiations held in the Sphinx and the Great Pyramid,” he wrote in A Voice Out of Egypt (1935).   The Rosicrucians then borrowed it in 1936, and Cayce then elaborated on his own earlier claim in a longer 1939 prophecy. When I discussed this last year, I said that I wasn’t sure exactly what text Randall-Stevens referred to, but I actually have a closer idea now. I can’t say I have the exact text, but I found one from the Middle Ages that is similar, though not identical.   As part of my research into the background of medieval Egyptian hermetic magic, I learned that there was apparently a large market in the late Middle Ages for pseudo-magical and pseudo-hermetic guides to using magic spells and finding buried treasure. These might fall into the category of what we would call “genuine fakes,” meaning that the texts are authentically medieval but that they were hoaxes and frauds in their day. Even though such texts are not “true” in any meaningful sense of the word, they do preserve within them cultural details that speak to the knowledge and interests of the people of medieval Egypt and what they wanted to know about their own country’s past.   Unfortunately, most of these primarily Arabic texts (there are also Greek examples from the Byzantine Empire) have never been translated into a language I can read, but one important one was translated into French in the early twentieth century. The book is called the Kitāb al-durr al-maknūz, and Ahmed Bay Kamal translated and published it as the Livre des perles enfouies et du mystère précieux (“The Book of Buried Pearls and Precious Mysteries”) in two volumes in 1907. It is an interesting book I had never heard of before, and it deserves an English edition. I am not, however, interested enough translate two volumes (!) of fantasy nonsense.   The book takes the form of a field guide to buried treasure in Egypt, with hundreds of entries for various treasures imagined to be found under the Egyptian sands. Each entry is almost maddeningly similar. It begins with a brief indication of the geographical location and major monuments in the area. It then explains where to dig and the types of aromatic substances one needs to properly “fumigate” the hole to combat curses and supernatural charms. (The author was really big into fumigation.) The entry concludes by describing in detail the fabulous riches to be found within and any restrictions on how much of the treasure the seeker may safely remove without triggering vengeful spirits.   As with all such treasure-hunting manuals, it never ceases to amaze me that readers never asked why the author didn’t follow his own guide and go get some treasure rather than trying to scrape together a living selling guidebooks.   Anyway, the Buried Pearls contains some superficial hermetic coloring, using hermetic and alchemical terminology, but in a way that shows that the author didn’t really have any knowledge of the subject, except in one passage (§ 417), which seems to have been copied and reworked from a genuine alchemical text. Instead, the interesting part of the book is the allusive references to stories about Egyptian history better known from historical works like the Akhbar al-zaman and from the legend of Hermes Trismegistus. Buried Pearls rarely tells a complete story, but the brief allusions to these myths show that they must have been familiar to the author’s presumed audience. That it is not a true Hermetic text is evident from the fact that it attributes the pyramids not to Hermes or Surid, the usual suspects in Hermetic accounts, but to Shaddād bin ‘Ād, the preferred fictional figure of regular everyday medieval Muslim residents of Egypt.   In terms of our interest in the Hall of Records, the Buried Pearls contains a section in which it alleges that there is a secret room hidden within the Sphinx. While it is not located where Schoch places the Hall of Records—under the statue’s paw—it places it reasonably similar to where Randall-Stevens and the Rosicrucians depicted the chamber in 1935 and 1936.   For comparison, here Randall-Stevens’s diagram from A Voice Out of Egypt (1935):   http://www.jasoncolavito.com/uploads/3/7/5/9/3759274/symbol01_orig.gif   Now here is the Buried Pearls on the same subject: § 309. – The Pyramids of the Dynasty of Shaddad. Go to the Sphinx and measure seven cubits from the back of the neck, then dig to the depth of three times the height of a man (three qamahs, or 18 ft.). By removing sand and rubble, you will bring to light two large colossal slabs that enclose an entrance. Remove them and go down a corridor where you will walk standing upright three times the length of a man. This passage ends with a large door, with two clappers, which gives access to a large room. This last room contains four hundred cells full of silver, estimated at one thousand loads of dinars, and a large number of matching tools. In the center of the hall, there is a large basin, take what you need, fumigate with incense (lit: kondor) and sandarac. That is all. (my trans.) Granted, it is not exactly the same, but the basic idea—an entrance buried directly under the Sphinx leading to a long corridor terminating in a sanctum sanctorum filled with treasure, is pretty much the same. I can’t say whether Randall-Stevens had read the French translation of Buried Pearls, but the similarity offers more evidence that I was probably on the right track when I suggested that it looked as though Arab-Islamic pyramid lore stood behind the Hall of Records claims.   Of course, this text was just one of many prior to the 1930s proposing a hollow Sphinx (Pliny, Natural History 36.17) or secret passages under the Sphinx (e.g., New Monthly Magazine 10, p. 561; Vyse, Operations 1, p. 141; Lovecraft, “Under the Pyramids,” etc.). It’s just interesting to find one that aligns so closely and which is also an “ancient manuscript” as Randall-Stevens claimed (but never proved himself) to have used.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

That is far from the stupidest thing on Goop. You should go check it out for yourself. It's fucking crackers.

Edit: here is some psychic vampire repellant. One of the ingredients is 'love'. https://shop.goop.com/shop/products/psychic-vampire-repellent?taxon_id=1489&country=GBR

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Chest Rockwell

[Keith Houchen]

Read this article on FiveThirtyEight.com and thought it might be of interest to some of our regular readers.

Shortly before killing 50 people at two New Zealand mosques, the man arrested for the Christchurch massacre posted an online manifesto that alluded to the “Great Replacement” — a racist demographic theory that stokes fears of white people becoming, effectively, extinct. Within hours of the shootings, this act of terrorism inspired by a conspiracy theory had already gone on to birth conspiracy theories about itself. Conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh speculated that the shooter was a secret leftist hoping to use the attack to smear the reputation of the political right.

That a single tragedy could be so tangled in conspiracy mongering should be no surprise at this point. We’ve all watched conspiracies grow from myriad soils: the missing Malaysia Airlines jet, the political passions of George Soros, vaccines, climate change, even the football secrets of the New England Patriots. Conspiracy theories appear to have become a major part of how we, as a society, process the news. It might be harder to think of an emotionally tinged event that didn’t provoke a conspiracy theory than it is to rattle off a list of the ones that did.

The ubiquity — and risks — of all these conspiracies has caught the attention of scientists. For years, the potentially dangerous consequences of conspiracy led many researchers to approach belief in conspiracies as a pathology in need of a cure. But that train of thought tended to awkwardly clash against some of the facts. The more we learn about conspiracy beliefs, the more normal they look — and the more some scientists worry that trying to prevent them could present its own dangers.

The experts I spoke with all said that the internet had changed the way conspiracies spread, but conspiracies, both dangerous and petty, have always been with us. Nobody knows, really, how popular conspiracy beliefs used to be, because it wasn’t a thing surveys regularly tracked until recently, said Jan-Willem van Prooijen, a psychologist at VU Amsterdam. But he and Michael Wood, professor of psychology at the UK’s University of Winchester, both pointed to a study that suggests conspiracies have consistently peered out of the pages of American newspapers for at least a century.

Joseph Uscinski, a political scientist at the University of Miami, cataloged and coded more than 100,000 letters to the editor published in The New York Times and the Chicago Tribune, and found the number of letters alleging and discussing conspiracy theories to have been pretty consistent over the last 120 years. This study isn’t perfect — the newspapers are still gatekeepers to what conspiracies were deemed fit to publish — but because it encompasses two different papers over a wide swath of time and many editorial leadership changes, Uscinski told me that it’s reasonable to assume we’re looking at something that reflects what interests readers, more so than what interests editors.

That research is significant to understanding conspiracy belief as a societal norm. “There was some crazy stuff that they were more than happy to publish,” Uscinski said. “The CIA is creating lesbianism. We found alien planets. … Jimmy Carter is a communist agent. Secret baby farms where they’re growing organs for people. It all wound up in there.”

And, it turns out, most of us believe in some strange goings-on behind the curtains. More than half of Americans think there was more than one person involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, for example. A 2014 study found that more than half of Americans believe in at least one medical conspiracy — a list that includes things like doctors giving children vaccines they know to be dangerous or the idea that the Food and Drug Administration intentionally suppresses natural cancer cures because of pressure from the pharmaceutical industry. The more specific conspiracies you ask about in polls, the higher the percentage of Americans that believe in at least one, Uscinski said. He thinks it’s likely everyone has a pet conspiracy to call their own.

What’s more, conspiracy beliefs aren’t necessarily all that special, said Carrie Leonard, a postdoctoral fellow in psychology at the University of Lethbridge in Canada. Leonard studies broader categories of what are known as “erroneous beliefs” — paranormal experiences, gambling fallacies, that sort of thing. The more we learn about conspiracy beliefs, the more they seem to have in common with these other kinds of wrong ideas, she said. Feeling a lack of control over various aspects of life, a tendency toward paranoid thinking, failure to understand and use statistics and probabilistic reasoning — all those things correlate with belief in ghosts and slot-machine prowess as much as with belief in the Illuminati. In fact, Leonard said, if you believe in the paranormal, you’re more likely to believe in conspiracy theories, and vice versa. (A finding that is probably completely unsurprising to the editors of The Fortean Times.)

At the same time, though, conspiracy theories have a sociopolitical aspect that makes them stand out. Leonard, and other researchers, think of belief in conspiracy as an interaction between individual tendencies and social circumstances. So, for instance, if you’re part of a group that is marginalized by society or lacks power in important ways you’re more likely to believe in conspiracy theories. That means being a member of a racial minority is a predictor of conspiracy belief — and so is unemployment, low economic status, or even just being a member of a cultural group that’s looked down on by people in positions of power.

Likewise, consider who is accusing whom of engaging in conspiracy. Uscinski’s study of newspaper letters to the editor tracked the social status of the letter writers. Consistently, he found conspiracies were punching up. Not only did average people write more than 70 percent of the conspiracy letters — as opposed to elite members of society — the conspiracies alleged were usually aimed at people in positions of power. There’s also no evidence to suggest that conspiracy belief is a phenomenon of the far right or the far left, Uscinski said. Americans broadly believe in a “them” pulling the strings and manipulating the country.

And this is where conspiracy beliefs start to get tangled up with truth. Because history does contain real examples of conspiracy. Pizzagate was a dangerous lie that led an armed man to walk into a family restaurant, convinced he was there to rescue children from pedophilic members of the Democratic Party. But that incident also exists in the same universe as the Tuskegee experiments, redlining and the Iran-Contra Affair. “I have this conspiracy that Western governments are involved in an international spying ring,” Wood said. “Before about 2014 that would have made you a conspiracy theorist. Now we know it’s true.”

Summoning — and demonizing — the belief in conspiracies can also have political consequences. “During the Bush Administration, the left was going fucking bonkers … about 9/11 and Halliburton and Cheney and Blackwater and all this stuff,” Uscinski said. “As soon as Obama won they didn’t give a shit about any of that stuff anymore. They did not care. It was politically and socially inert.” In turn, conspiracy theories about Obama flourished on the right. Uscinski said he is frustrated by this tendency for partisans to build up massive conspiracy infrastructures when they are out of power, only to develop a sudden amnesia and deep concern about the conspiracy mongering behavior of the other side once power is restored. It’s a cycle, he said that threatened to make social science a tool of partisan slapfights more than a standard of truth. And in a 2017 paper, he argued that conspiracy beliefs could even be useful parts of the democratic process, calling them “tools for dissent used by the weak to balance against power.”

These issues add up to more scientists beginning to have questions about what the goals of conspiracy belief research should actually be. Do we want an entire field of study aimed at preventing conspiracy theories from forming and dispelling the ones that do?

“I don’t think so,” Wood said. “I’m sure some people would disagree with me on that. But the objective shouldn’t be nobody speculates about people in power abusing power. That’s a terrible outcome for the world.”

He’s right — some scientists do disagree. Leonard, for instance, acknowledged that the world is complex, but viewed conspiracy theories as largely negative — erroneous beliefs, like gambling fallacies, but with the power to disrupt whole societies rather than just one person’s bank account.

Of course, all this debate assumes eliminating conspiracy theories is even possible. Van Prooijen told me that he’s currently working on a line of research to see whether a false conspiracy belief can be corrected by giving the people who believe in it something they’ve lacked — power and control over their own lives. In laboratory experiments, this seems to work, he said. Empower people, give them a sense of control, operate with transparency, and conspiracy theories seem to become less appealing.

Trouble is, in the real world, who has the ability to offer that kind of empowerment?

That’s right. THEM.

“If a group of people strongly distrusts a government or group of leaders, anything they do will raise suspicion,” van Prooijen said. Whether they want to get rid of conspiracies or not, scientists (and global leaders) are kind of stuck. Conspiracy beliefs are the norm, and difficult to shake because the people with the most interest in shaking them are, usually, the very people the conspiracy is meant to fight. As van Prooijen put it: “It’s not an easy task.”

[BomberPat]

Quote

“If a group of people strongly distrusts a government or group of leaders, anything they do will raise suspicion,” van Prooijen said. Whether they want to get rid of conspiracies or not, scientists (and global leaders) are kind of stuck. Conspiracy beliefs are the norm, and difficult to shake because the people with the most interest in shaking them are, usually, the very people the conspiracy is meant to fight. As van Prooijen put it: “It’s not an easy task.”

That's the rub, isn't it? Any counterargument, any evidence to disprove the conspiracy, actually only serves to strengthen their position because "they would say that". It's unwinnable.

My fixation at the moment, and something I'm considering applying for research funding to look further into, is the centre of the Venn diagram between conspiracy theory, pseudo-history/pseudo-science, social media, the far right, and Russian interference. It all adds up, by design or coincidence or somewhere muddled in the middle, to an attack on established truth, on rational debate, and on socially/cultural recognised arbiters of truth and objectivity. 

I recently finished reading Deborah Lipstadt's "Denying The Holocaust", and so much of the concerns discussed there around abusing the Freedom of Speech angle, about how to cloak denial in a veneer of academic respectability to win people over, and particularly the closing chapter on what denial might look like in the future has been incredibly prescient about how the far-right and conspiracy theorists (and usually, when you dig down deep enough, the two are one and the same) get their message out there, and keep the rest of us having to defend things we know to be true, or have circular arguments around specific data points which makes us look like the ones without any answers, and them look like they've got it all figured out - which is what wins over new converts.

There's an epistemological crisis going on right now, that I think underpins almost every political event of the past five years or more. I miss the days when conspiracy theories were a fun diversion I could amuse myself with, rather than something that profoundly depresses me almost every day.

[Keith Houchen]

54 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

That's the rub, isn't it? Any counterargument, any evidence to disprove the conspiracy, actually only serves to strengthen their position because "they would say that". It's unwinnable.

Have you seen that Flat Earth doc on Netflix?  Think it's called Beyond The Curve.  There is a bit where they plan an experiment and a scientist thinks it's a cool idea.  He then mentions how his approach is to start with a theory, then research and experiment until he has a result that proves or disproves that theory and then that becomes his opinion.  Whereas these guys do it in reverse, they have their opinion and then dismiss any evidence that contradicts that opinion. One bit that stood out for me was how the one who looks like Clancey Brown was doing an experiment and said "Unfortunately it didn't work" for his first few attempts but finally he found a way that gave him the results he wanted.

Then there is Charlie Veitch, he didn't watch and discuss evidence with experts and changed his mind about things and said he got it wrong.  Oh no, he was bought off or brainwashed or got to.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Keith Houchen

[Wretch]

36 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Have you seen that Flat Earth doc on Netflix?  Think it's called Beyond The Curve.  There is a bit where they plan an experiment and a scientist thinks it's a cool idea.  He then mentions how his approach is to start with a theory, then research and experiment until he has a result that proves or disproves that theory and then that becomes his opinion.  Whereas these guys do it in reverse, they have their opinion and then dismiss any evidence that contradicts that opinion. One bit that stood out for me was how the one who looks like Clancey Brown was doing an experiment and said "Unfortunately it didn't work" for his first few attempts but finally he found a way that gave him the results he wanted.

Behind the Curve I think it's called. Absolutely lovely telly at the end when their experiment accidentally disproves their own theory of the flat earth.

 

[SuperstarNeilC]

How many people noticed the letter in Thursday’s Daily Telegraph on the Extinction Rebellion logo – supposedly a stylised hourglass?
“SIR – I wonder how many of the “woke” individuals seeing “rising fascism” at every turn have thought about their own symbology.

Extinction Rebellion claims its logo is based on an hourglass, representing time running out to save the planet.

In reality it is the Nordic rune Dagaz – one of the few that cannot be inverted.

Turned on its side (as it has been by Extinction Rebellion), it represents the wish for darkness, chaos and the dominance of one group over another, rather than harmony. It is hardly surprising that it was popular in Viking curses against foes.

The use of Nordic symbology by political or activist groups is always cause for concern.”

Mark Boyle
Johnstone, Renfrewshire 

Darkness, chaos and the dominance of one group over another. Says it all.

Edited June 30, 2019 by SuperstarNeilC

[Loki]

"Turned on its side" is a pretty massive cop out  😂.  It's probably one of the most simple and enduring symbols in human history, used by countless civilizations.

[King Coconut]

If you stand 3 metres from your screen, squint your eyes and look at the logo through a concave mirror, your jap's eye will fall off. 

[neil]

Anyone listen to Bob Lazar on Rogans podcast? I thought he sounded full of shit.

[BomberPat]

Not as good as the multiple comments I've seen describing it as a "reconfigured swastika". Which is true of any combination of straight lines, really.