Chris Jericho

[JLM]

8 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

 

Calling out sexual assault and wanting perpetrators to be brought to justice is not chastising people for their hobby.

This is a preposterously uncharitable and borderline outright dishonest reading of what I’ve said. I wasn’t referring to calling out the actions or condemning the people responsible a pointless forum crusade and I think you know that. 

Again, I don’t think calling individuals out for failure to boycott wrestling on a small wrestling forum is very productive. We can disagree on that but don’t misrepresent what I’ve said. 
 

 

 

Edited January 3 by JLM

[Keith Houchen]

6 minutes ago, JLM said:

This is a preposterously uncharitable and borderline outright dishonest reading of what I’ve said. I wasn’t referring to calling out the actions or condemning the people responsible a pointless forum crusade and I think you know that. 

Again, I don’t think calling individuals out for failure to boycott wrestling on a small wrestling forum is very productive. We can disagree on that but don’t misrepresent what I’ve said. 
 

 

 

You said I was on a crusade on this forum, then referenced stopping a poster watching a show.  I clarified by saying what any crusade I may be on was. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume by your posts that my “Crusade” is to stop people watching a TV show, so I clarified what my crusade, if any, is. I didn’t misrepresent anything. I may have gotten the wrong end of the stick, but you can’t deny that’s how it looked even if it wasn’t intended. 
 

My initial point was separating genuine crime and an audience for a show. And how I do what I can for the former, and do nothing about the latter. Sorry for not making myself clear. 

[RedRooster]

I did stop watching AEW, and while I certainly found Keith’s posts persuasive, it reached the point where I felt a bit sick watching it; seeing alleged abuser after alleged abuser paraded in front of a cheering audience. I’d finish and episode and feel a bit sad. That’s not what wrestling should be. And it fucking sucks - I’d love to continue watching it. While I think Tony Khan’s booking decisions are often questionable, there’s still a lot of good on each episode of Dynamite.

Short of a very organised fan campaign along the lines of #GiveDivasAChance (and even then, Khan might blame it on ‘WWE bots’), I don’t know what we as fans can do to make a difference. Perhaps we can’t do anything. I choose not to watch it, but if I’m honest, that’s about making me feel better about myself; nothing more than that. I certainly don’t judge people like Hannibal (who is a lovely person) or LaGoosh (ditto) for watching AEW - and realistically, if we all switched off and AEW, it probably would create a less favourable working environment for wrestlers by leaving behind a WWE monopoly once again.

There’s no perfect solution, although I don’t think we should just continue on and forget about what any of these people have allegedly done.

[JLM]

Yeah, I just don’t think it’s as black and white as saying you don’t care about horrific thing X if you still watch or part with cash. I don’t think people who watch WWE are OK with the Saudi regime murdering journalists. I don’t think everyone who attended All In is fine with sexual assault.
 

We live in an extremely fucked up world where it’s impossible to consume or enjoy almost anything without feeling like a scumbag. You still have to live a life and find joy in things where you can and it’s impossible to be perfect. 

Call out injustice, campaign for change, make a difference where you can, absolutely do all of those things. If you personally feel better about a boycott I would  never ever discourage that. I just have a hard time calling out the next regular Joe’s hypocrisy for consuming a scummy product when we all have to do it on a daily basis, and I don’t think it necessarily means they don’t care or shouldn’t have any input on the latest scumbaggery discourse. 
 

 

Edited January 3 by JLM

[Keith Houchen]

39 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

while I certainly found Keith’s posts persuasive

I do appreciate this, but please. Under no circumstances take advice from me on any subject or issue. Ever. It’s a road to ruin. 

[BomberPat]

I think the insistence that people only care when it's somebody they don't like isn't exactly accurate either.

There were people named in Speaking Out who really disappointed me. One I would have considered a friend, and one as a friend and something of a mentor as far as the wrestling business is concerned. I didn't make excuses for those people, and I haven't watched anything either of them have done since, whether retrospectively watching old matches or since one of them has attempted to weasel their way back into wrestling. I find it far harder to watch somebody who I once actually liked than I do someone like Flair, who's an old relic who's been hiding in plain sight for decades, and if it were somebody like Eddie Kingston or Bryan Danielson, to use Keith's examples, in Jericho's position, I'd probably feel a lot worse about the prospect of watching them than I do Jericho or Flair.

For me, I never really expected Speaking Out to have a meaningful impact on the likes of WWE or AEW. They're big corporate behemoths with HR departments and all the rest of it. My concern was that my friends, and people like them, who had appalling experiences in and around independent wrestling where there were no safeguards to speak of could, through speaking out about their experiences, work to build independent wrestling into a space where that doesn't happen any more, and to ensure that it doesn't happen for future generations. At worst, that they could build a space within independent wrestling where they were safe from this shit.  

I would love AEW to be that space on a larger scale, and I'm disappointed that it's not. If that is a red line for people, I completely understand it. I'm happy to withhold judgement and see what, if anything, they actually do to respond to this as it unfolds, but if it's already gone too far for others, that's completely understandable. 

 

I think, on a broader level, we're in a position where almost all forms of protest and activism have been defanged to the point of uselessness, and all we've got left is how we spend our money and what media we consume, so we become hyper-focused on that, on never wanting to spend money on something that involves someone problematic, but it's a mug's game.  I'm sure plenty of people who stopped watching WWE because of the Saudi shows still watched the World Cup, watch Disney movies, or use Facebook, or any of countless other companies that Saudi Arabia invests in. Major charities are accepting donations from massive petrochemical corporations. Everything goes to shit if you dig deep enough. Again, everyone has their red line, and all we can do is make sure people have the information required to make informed and educated decisions, I don't think there's any value in debating and arguing where somebody else's red line should fall. No ethical consumption under capitalism and all that.

[LaGoosh]

57 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

There’s no perfect solution, although I don’t think we should just continue on and forget about what any of these people have allegedly done.

Definitely not. If people want to have these discussions they absolutely should.

On the flipside though, the constant derailing of threads by some (absolutely not you RedRooster) can be relentless and miserable. Not to mention repetitive and bordering on what feels more like trolling than a post made in good faith. It often feels like any possible genuine discussion is now often just the same old snark. It'd be great instead if people used relevant threads (or created one) to discuss and engage with this important issue properly. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

So whether or not it was true, we can all agree we wouldn’t miss Jericho if he quit wrestling forever tomorrow?

[Keith Houchen]

20 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

So whether or not it was true, we can all agree we wouldn’t miss Jericho if he quit wrestling forever tomorrow?

Would that lead to more Fozzy albums though? It’s a real give and take, isn’t it! We could probably avoid Fozzy way easier but there’s always someone misusing a jukebox somewhere and it’ll catch you off guard. 

[Loki]

I think a final WWE run and retirement is on the cards for Jericho anyway.  He's obviously slowing down a lot now, has interests outside of wrestling, and has a Hall Of Fame spot and a Legends contract waiting for him.

[RedRooster]

27 minutes ago, Loki said:

I think a final WWE run and retirement is on the cards for Jericho anyway.  He's obviously slowing down a lot now, has interests outside of wrestling, and has a Hall Of Fame spot and a Legends contract waiting for him.

Or he had, anyway. On the back of this situation, you’d have to think WWE would think twice about associating with him. It’s not a McMahon dictatorship anymore, and the new management would be well aware of the furore signing him would provoke. There’s little to nothing to gain from signing him.

[Infinity Land]

11 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

Or he had, anyway. On the back of this situation, you’d have to think WWE would think twice about associating with him. It’s not a McMahon dictatorship anymore, and the new management would be well aware of the furore signing him would provoke. There’s little to nothing to gain from signing him.

He's under contract until the end of next year. Whatever furore there is now, won't be there by then. If it hadn't been for Kylie Rae checking twitter most of it would have already. As unfortunately, I don't see anything more becoming public on the matter.

If this WWE team see value in Jericho they'll bring him in. They decided to put in the Wooo back in the intro. Both Matt Riddle and Velveteen Dream were kept around. Dream was meant to be fired for something other than the allegations after he'd passed their investigation. Riddle making the scene at the airport was the last straw for him.

 

[Hannibal Scorch]

35 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

Or he had, anyway. On the back of this situation, you’d have to think WWE would think twice about associating with him. It’s not a McMahon dictatorship anymore, and the new management would be well aware of the furore signing him would provoke. There’s little to nothing to gain from signing him.

They are lining up Connor McGregor for another UFC fight, I don’t think TKO are that fussed (unless you’re suggesting they look at WWE differently in regards to talent hirings, which is plausible)

[RedRooster]

1 hour ago, Infinity Land said:

He's under contract until the end of next year. Whatever furore there is now, won't be there by then. If it hadn't been for Kylie Rae checking twitter most of it would have already. As unfortunately, I don't see anything more becoming public on the matter.

If this WWE team see value in Jericho they'll bring him in. They decided to put in the Wooo back in the intro. Both Matt Riddle and Velveteen Dream were kept around. Dream was meant to be fired for something other than the allegations after he'd passed their investigation. Riddle making the scene at the airport was the last straw for him.

 

Regarding Dream/Riddle - the decision to retain their services was made during the McMahon era. They do still employ people who have had allegations made against them, though. 

As far as Jericho goes, whether or not the furore subsides may not matter. He almost certainly has an NDA to his name, and NDAs have been broken in the past. If you sign Jericho, you’re potentially signing up to a PR nightmare at some point, so why bother? He’s long past his best, he’s not going to add anything to the WWE roster that they don’t already have and his drawing power at this stage is questionable at best. I don’t think it’ll be through sincere moral objections, but I just don’t think they’ll see any value in signing the guy now.

Edited January 4 by RedRooster

[air_raid]

9 hours ago, Loki said:

I think a final WWE run and retirement is on the cards for Jericho anyway.  He's obviously slowing down a lot now, has interests outside of wrestling, and has a Hall Of Fame spot and a Legends contract waiting for him.

 

8 hours ago, RedRooster said:

Or he had, anyway. On the back of this situation, you’d have to think WWE would think twice about associating with him. It’s not a McMahon dictatorship anymore, and the new management would be well aware of the furore signing him would provoke.

The flip side to this particular factor is that it makes it more likely than any time since he left that the two sides could come to a creative agreement on a return. It’s not Vince that would be promising him the world anymore with Jericho having finally realised from Vince words are meaningless (and forgettable).

6 hours ago, RedRooster said:

I just don’t think they’ll see any value in signing the guy now.

Not to make a second parallel to the Punk discussion, but it’s more about the ensemble cast than the star power of any one performer. While I agree that there’s not many stories and no fresh opponents you’d have left for him (vs “American Nightmare” Cody in a WWE ring maybe), if you were Uncle Paul and you had chance to have Roman Reigns, Cody Rhodes, The Rock, John Cena, CM Punk and Chris Jericho all on the marquee, even if it was just for one or two nights, wouldn’t you do it?